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 Post subject: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:56 am 
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42630108

Although I hate the the term 'hit on' which sounds very prejudicial, surely if men hadn't been 'trying it on' for millenia we wouldn't still be here, would we?

Rape and assault are beyond the pale, of course, but do these women have a point?

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:29 am 
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If men just ignore women, what will happen next?

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:32 am 
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I think she's missing the point of what she sees as "puritanism". The MeToo movement started out of a sense of exasperation. Complain and it'll go badly for you, take it on the chin/chest/breast/thigh, and everything will be hunky-dory.

It takes a helluva lot for any one woman to complain, sometimes puttting her job, career or sanity in danger. There may well be women who've falsely accused men, but I see the so-called puritanism as a very positive movement and one which might make some men think before they grope.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:35 am 
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Teapot wrote:
If men just ignore women, what will happen next?

Are men being asked to ignore women? I thhink they're being asked to behave like gentlemen.
Would you put your hand on a male colleague's thigh whilst talking to him?

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:47 am 
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I work in a job that has historically been sexualised it has got better but even so ,even today there are (mostly older ) men who think it's acceptable to say to us things that they would go mad about if someone said them to their wife or female family members so why should I have to take it? And don't get me started on the accidental hands brushing your boobs or bum.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:59 am 
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MAD87 wrote:
Teapot wrote:
If men just ignore women, what will happen next?

Are men being asked to ignore women? I thhink they're being asked to behave like gentlemen.
Would you put your hand on a male colleague's thigh whilst talking to him?

I was just taking it a stage further, because of what has occurred and wondering if it gets to a point where the pendulum swings the other way? If a women want's something just the mere accusation could get a male removed from his position would we become that sterile society we would all need body cams to make sure of no transgressions?

EDIT: Men do not seem to have the touchy feely with other men the way that women can with another women.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:05 pm 
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pathca wrote:
I work in a job that has historically been sexualised it has got better but even so ,even today there are (mostly older ) men who think it's acceptable to say to us things that they would go mad about if someone said them to their wife or female family members so why should I have to take it? And don't get me started on the accidental hands brushing your boobs or bum.

I have witnessed the reverse to Pathca, bad in industry women on the factory assembly lines often put their hands on male co workers bottoms and one young apprentice was de bagged. He left the company.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Teapot wrote:
If men just ignore women, what will happen next?

No-one's asking men to ignore women, just keep their hands to themselves.
I disagree with Catherine Deneuve's comment that men have a "right" to "hit on" women - it has nothing to do with being a right, it's a pretty natural thing for men to do. Chatting up is one thing but gratuitous groping and unwanted advances are definitely :ymsick:

Teapot wrote:
If a women wants something just the mere accusation could get a male removed from his position

The boot would be on the other foot as I suspect that this already goes on in reverse at the moment ...


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Teapot wrote:
I have witnessed the reverse to Pathca, bad in industry women on the factory assembly lines often put their hands on male co workers bottoms and one young apprentice was de bagged. He left the company.

I bet there was no risk of complaints from women about sexual harassment :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Blaze wrote:
Teapot wrote:
I have witnessed the reverse to Pathca, bad in industry women on the factory assembly lines often put their hands on male co workers bottoms and one young apprentice was de bagged. He left the company.

I bet there was no risk of complaints from women about sexual harassment :lol:

Quite a few liaisons from what I gathered. The only complaint was from the young apprentice, so it seems the young are the ones instigating change.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:11 pm 
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Teapot wrote:
EDIT: Men do not seem to have the touchy feely with other men the way that women can with another women.

Allegedly Kevin Spacey did.

I tend to agree with Mad and Blaze. However, I would like to read the full letter before saying whether I agree with Deneuve et al (the signatories include Anne-Élisabeth Moutet, who I usually find well informed and sensible). I googled it and every publication that I looked at (more than 10) did what the BBC did - gave exerpts. I even looked at the Le Monde site, but they wanted 2 euros to read the full article, and I'm not paying that.

Having heard M Moutet on radio 4 this morning, she said that the letter' main drafter was an Iranian journalist who hated the idea that men in her own country can patronise women, and would look for an excuse to say that women need to be protected. the #Metoo campaign played in to this.

I have no doubt that the casting couch was heavily used in the entertainment industry and elsewhere, and feel that the time when women who had to offer sex in exchange for a job should have gone long ago (not that it ever should have existed). The trouble is that when undoubted wrongs become part of a virtue signalling exercise by a group of people who want to get in on the wave of public disgust you run a risk. As the letter says: " De fait, #metoo a entraîné dans la presse et sur les réseaux sociaux une campagne de délations et de mises en accusation publiques d’individus qui, sans qu’on leur laisse la possibilité ni de répondre ni de se défendre, ont été mis exactement sur le même plan que des agresseurs sexuels."


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Quite so Elstow, I should have written straight, crikey that can't be correct in 2018? heterosexual, applying to both as unwanted advances from a gay women may equally be un appreciated by a women.
Blimey what a mine field.

If I were single I might be tempted to carry a duplicate pad an issue a written notice :x

EDIT again: Were there not complaints from the receivers of Mr Spacey's un wanted advances?

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:08 pm 
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Teapot wrote:
I was just taking it a stage further, because of what has occurred and wondering if it gets to a point where the pendulum swings the other way? If a women want's something just the mere accusation could get a male removed from his position would we become that sterile society we would all need body cams to make sure of no transgressions?


A bit like me not feeling safe on the roads without a dashcam then?

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:23 pm 
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Indeed

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:07 am 
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Let's not forget this whole sorry episode includes men being abused by men too. It's basically about people, mainly in a position of power, using that power to intimidate and get away with unreasonable behaviour. If it's consensual on both sides, then that's legal and surely just a bit of flirting. But as we know, someone can be made to consent if they feel (like has been mentioned above) it jeopardises their career or could be used as blackmail.

I worked in a paper mill for many years, and light flirting or suggestive comments were the norm. It was a laugh. Only when one party becomes uneasy or the behaviour continues and becomes unwelcome would it then become an issue. It never did. We were all grown up enough to have a laugh and leave it at that.

I disagree with the OP link if she is suggesting it is a man's right to treat women like walking sex objects. Of course, the majority probably do, but I'm afraid I'm seeing a culture of subservient women who have accepted that it is also ok for men to take a mistress and turn a blind eye. One wonders her real motive - a bit of publicity?

On another point, sticking my head out of the parapet a moment, for those situations in the movie/music trade where you see photos of women in amazing dresses that are almost falling off them - one could say that they could be dressing provocatively for attention "look, I'm nearly showing my nipples", or wearing sheer material that practically shows they are nude underneath. Isn't that asking for extra attention? Call me old fashioned, but I do believe that if you want to show off your "wares", isn't that kind of encouraging unnecessary attention? I recall seeing a photo of Weinberger in a photo embrace with a lady who has since accused him of misconduct - her dress was practically falling off, and most of her boobs were practically thrust in his face. Is that not provocative?

Can of worms open and scattered on the floor! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:19 am 
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The thing is Bayleaf, so many of the current accusers of what took place often years ago are now coming to the for. Was it consensual in some cases at the time? Sure abuse took place but how can it be proven years later, hence my "carry a duplicate pad" comment. The need to file away the receipt for 30 years just in case.

What draws people together for a fling, when it risks a family possibly with children splitting up. Is it the marginally tighter rounder buttocks or the marginally perter breast, Maybe the shape of the mouth or just the plain old notch in the bed post.

When something appalls society there is a knee jerk reaction and the pendulum swings too far the other way, sometimes that is worse than before.

Attraction is probably one of the most powerful things that effect humans, it can have devastating effects on people and behaviour.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:34 am 
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Lots of good points there, Bayleaf, though I don't think Catherine Deneuve needs any publicity :lol:

You're right, Teapot, many people dress to attract and it can backfire and they aren't prepared for the consequences. As for a fling, often as a result of some sort of "mid-life crisis" (for want of a better expression !) - it's the breach of trust that is probably the most devastating.

I find it hard to believe that of all these people accusing people like Weinberg never spoke of it at the time, and that certain people get known for being gropers. But I wonder if 30 years ago the accusers would have been listened to or believed. They themselves would have been accused of dressing or acting provocatively, or of leading a man on. There would have been no support for them and many would have felt they only got what they deserved because that is more than likely the way they would have been treated.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:48 pm 
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Blaze wrote:
I find it hard to believe that of all these people accusing people like Weinberg never spoke of it at the time, and that certain people get known for being gropers. But I wonder if 30 years ago the accusers would have been listened to or believed. They themselves would have been accused of dressing or acting provocatively, or of leading a man on. There would have been no support for them and many would have felt they only got what they deserved because that is more than likely the way they would have been treated.


I fear that is the proverbial nail squarely hit.

Why doesn't society back whistle blowers? So many over the years, one of my favorites Egwina Curry, ended her career but all said and done it was the right decision. Plenty more examples.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Yes Blaze, I'm sure people spoke out at the time but I'd lay odds on more keeping their mouths shut through fear, (victim's) guilt or good ole intimidation. Many will have realised that silence is better than a blighted life.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:33 pm 
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MAD87 wrote:
Yes Blaze, I'm sure people spoke out at the time but I'd lay odds on more keeping their mouths shut through fear, (victim's) guilt or good ole intimidation. Many will have realised that silence is better than a blighted life.


Yes, wasn't it Robert Lindsay who said recently that his film career was blighted after he said something to Weinstein that didn't go down well?

Not sure what it was about because I didn't hear it all, but probably about bullying rather than sexual misconduct.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:56 pm 
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MAD87 wrote:
Many will have realised that silence is better than a blighted life.

I have, nothing to do with this topic but seeing lies, theft, and stupidity/gross misconduct, I reported it, never again.

Somehow I have to alter my outlook to ignore all wrong doing and put my head in the sand along with the rest.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:43 pm 
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MAD87 wrote:
Yes Blaze, I'm sure people spoke out at the time but I'd lay odds on more keeping their mouths shut through fear, (victim's) guilt or good ole intimidation. Many will have realised that silence is better than a blighted life.


....or were told that by their agent.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Many were their agents.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:48 pm 
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A one word answer to the original question:
NO
I'm not going to waste my time debating it. Been there (woman in man world) got the tee shirt, proved I could do the job

Nuff said

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:07 pm 
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liz wrote:
A one word answer to the original question:
NO
I'm not going to waste my time debating it. Been there (woman in man world) got the tee shirt, proved I could do the job

Nuff said

Proud of you, not easy as I have witnessed. The thread was about men hitting on women and unwanted advances though :ymhug: oop that's inappropriate :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a welcome breath of fresh air and commonsense?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:39 am 
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Teapot wrote:
MAD87 wrote:
Many will have realised that silence is better than a blighted life.

I have, nothing to do with this topic but seeing lies, theft, and stupidity/gross misconduct, I reported it, never again.

Somehow I have to alter my outlook to ignore all wrong doing and put my head in the sand along with the rest.


That's the sad thing. Evil seems to win against good too many times. We're just expected to look the other way.

It's a tough call, and it's not right. :(

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