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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:41 pm 
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DaveW wrote:
Stop this precious pro royalty thing, they have been screwing the British people for centuries, they ain't going to stop because some peasants have published facts about their secret financial activities.

The Royal Family are an easy target - there are plenty of greedy fat cats in government feathering their nests at our expense. Who's going to defend them ?

As for republics and the like - look at Russia and its government and oligarchs ... and the number of African countries run greedy people who couldn't give a toss about the people they govern.

As far as the "Paradise papers" - it is merely a follow-up to "Panama Papers" and after all, countries like Antigua and the Cayman Islands have been used for years for hiding money.

So what's new ?


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:07 pm 
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I think the royals are consistent

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41901175

in their greed.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:15 am 
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Taking your "openness" suggestion further, imagine a press release:

"Her Majesty is concerned that putting her money into British and European Banks will leave any of it over €100K exposed to bail-in in the event of said bank failing. She has therefore decided to move her money off shore to safer baking conditions elsewhere to protect it better"

What do you think the reaction and impact would be?

J


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:55 am 
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Just noticed my typo - banking not baking - although the latter is apt in terms of cooking the books!

As for Dave's PoW link - he's been doing this type of thing for years and years - writing black spider letters to all and sundry about his pet projects and peeves. As with earlier comments - is he really aware of every place he has money invested?

J


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:34 am 
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It's rather naïve to think that anyone with a bit of money is going to invest it all in the UK ! It's journalists looking for sensation - they know what the reaction will be .... ooooh aaaah, aren't they greedy. Perhaps these hacks should be gunning for the investment advisors rather than individuals like Prince Charles as it's highly unlikely he would know where every cent of his Duchy of Cornwall dosh is invested. It's not quite like putting it into a couple of building societies and any conflict of interest is likely to be down to his advisors who should be aware of his views.

DaveW wrote:
I think the royals are consistent in their greed http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41901175

Why is it greedy to invest money ? What else should be done with it ?

From Dave's BBC link :
"The Duchy of Cornwall says he has no direct involvement in its investments"
"A Duchy of Cornwall spokesman said Prince Charles voluntarily pays income tax on any revenue from his estate"

What's the problem ?


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:41 am 
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Those who like to bash Royalty are using this in the usual manner. A more sensible approach to these "revelations" would have been to expose what is going in in a general sense and say that well known figures, including Royalty, are involved but to what extent their knowledge of what their advisors were doing on their behalf has not yet been determined. The thrust of the exposure is that there is something wrong in the way money can be stashed away to AVOID tax which may be morally indefensible but, if advisors are paid to invest on your behalf, you will leave them to get on with it in the main. Does the Queen follow the cleaners round Buck House to check they have done all the corners? I suspect not and does she check similarly the investments made on her behalf by Investment companies? I also doubt very much.

I come back to the original comments I made in that this whole story offered nothing more than the opportunity for the BBC to join the ranks of the guttersnipes who parade daily as reputable organs of journalism. Also I ask the question of all these critics. Do you put a notice in the paper or broadcast down the pub the nature of your private financial affairs? Thought not, so what's all this "Ooh it's secret!" rubbish?


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:54 am 
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+1 Wilbro.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:59 am 
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DaveW wrote:
If it is all above board and clean as a whistle why try to keep it a secret? Not breaking any laws is a pretty tame excuse for aggressively avoiding or dodging taxes.

I'm sorry, but the excuse of being too busy or above menial tasks like breaking the law wouldn't excuse me or you. Money in excess of the yearly GDP of big countries is being stashed away and benefiting nobody other than the obsessive greed of a few. I don't care who it is, let's see all the facts and then judge. If it wasn't for this hack the world wouldn't have a clue about the location of trillions of dollars.

Stop this precious pro royalty thing, they have been screwing the British people for centuries, they ain't going to stop because some peasants have published facts about their secret financial activities.


Nail hit firmly on head. Well said.

And it isn't just that, these people are the reason why the rest of us who don't have millions have to jump through ridiculous hoops in the name of money laundering.

The tax authorities have absolutely no problem in pursueing us. Not me personally, but they have no problem taxing to the full ex teachers, policemen and local government workers while denying them the most basic of democratic rights.

This was amply demonstrated to me yesterday when, upfront about my address and why, following the European ideal, I came here to work, I was firmly put in my place by my former MP, Anna Soubry, who said that she wasn't allowed to speak to me on any parliamentary matter.

I live in fear that Yorkshire bank for some unknown reason decides that they no longer want my custom. Our rapidly dwindling income will have to be paid here directly at the equally rapidly dwindling rate caused by the rapidly dwindling intelligence of UK politicians.

It isn't a matter of how much the awful family costs the nation, or how wonderful the ginger headed one is who promotes games for men made limbless by the very politicians who bow and scrape to his family. It is about what is right between human beings of supposed equality.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:06 am 
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While we are about defending the royalty (and remember back to the republic debate where I favoured a monarchy) let us also not forget that the vast majority of those other well known figures who are now in the spot light will not have dreamt up a super-wiz tax avoidance scheme themselves. They too will have had advisers and financial managers, who have utilised such concepts.

It is not one rule for the rich (plebes) and another for (rich) royalty. If we are going to get stirred up it has to be against the whole damn lot.

The first line targets are however those advisors and managers. But the real villains are successive governments that allow such schemes to be legally outside of the normal tax rules, because most of what I have seen revealed so far has either been fully legal or officially sanctioned by HMRC. So that is where our anger should be properly focused.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:43 am 
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To your list I would add Politicians and Central Bankers, who through ZIRP ensured no return was possible for locally invested funds and also decreed only the first €100K of such funds should be protected in the event of a bank bail-in.

Everyone is going on about the (illegal) tax evasion and the (legal) tax avoidance. However there are other genuine issues.

J


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Spardo wrote:
It isn't a matter of how much the awful family costs the nation, or how wonderful the ginger headed one is who promotes games for men made limbless by the very politicians who bow and scrape to his family. It is about what is right between human beings of supposed equality.

You seem to equate equality with how much money people have !

Remember Animal Farm .... All humans are equal but some are more equal than others. In the end, all the underdogs took on the very traits they hated in the bosses. Look at any communist country - do you really think there is any equality there ?

Equality of opportunity is one thing, equality of wealth is another. Give two people £10 and ask them how much they have at the end of two weeks. One will have frittered it away and the other will have doubled it through wise investment. Should the one who doubled his money should be penalised just so that the fritterer doesn't feel hard done by ?
Not everyone who invests and makes money is a crook - many of them are decent, hard-working folk. Of course it's easier to make money if you already have millions - but it's also possible to lose money. I think Donald Trump has done this.

Why does making money have to equate to greed ? Does this mean that someone who wins the pools and invests his winnings is greedy and that he would be a better person if he would spend, spend spend ? Or better still, give it all away to the poor and needy ?


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:48 pm 
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We are meant to have equality of treatment under the law. This is not the case, but some of us seem to think that is ok and some of us do not.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:56 pm 
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Spardo wrote:
We are meant to have equality of treatment under the law. This is not the case, but some of us seem to think that is ok and some of us do not.

And yet you are breaking the law. You have said here that you have a bank account in England how come when for a lot of us living here it was stopped, or are you another one with property over there or false property, burning the candle at both ends.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Blaze wrote:
Spardo wrote:
It isn't a matter of how much the awful family costs the nation, or how wonderful the ginger headed one is who promotes games for men made limbless by the very politicians who bow and scrape to his family. It is about what is right between human beings of supposed equality.

You seem to equate equality with how much money people have !

Remember Animal Farm .... All humans are equal but some are more equal than others. In the end, all the underdogs took on the very traits they hated in the bosses. Look at any communist country - do you really think there is any equality there ?

Equality of opportunity is one thing, equality of wealth is another. Give two people £10 and ask them how much they have at the end of two weeks. One will have frittered it away and the other will have doubled it through wise investment. Should the one who doubled his money should be penalised just so that the fritterer doesn't feel hard done by ?
Not everyone who invests and makes money is a crook - many of them are decent, hard-working folk. Of course it's easier to make money if you already have millions - but it's also possible to lose money. I think Donald Trump has done this.

Why does making money have to equate to greed ? Does this mean that someone who wins the pools and invests his winnings is greedy and that he would be a better person if he would spend, spend spend ? Or better still, give it all away to the poor and needy ?

+1

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Papibryn wrote:
Spardo wrote:
We are meant to have equality of treatment under the law. This is not the case, but some of us seem to think that is ok and some of us do not.


And yet you are breaking the law. You have said here that you have a bank account in England how come when for a lot of us living here it was stopped, or are you another one with property over there or false property, burning the candle at both ends.


I don't know why yours was stopped, but there is no law against having an account in England when living in France, as long as it was in existence before the move. As with us and many many others I know in the same boat.

No, I am not breaking the law, I am particular about that in all things and resent the implication otherwise.

I am reluctant to quote The Connexion, but according to it, not only is it not illegal to have an account, apparently there is no law against opening one. Just banking reluctance to do so.

For the very reasons I complained about above, money laundering.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive ... -residents

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Spardo wrote:
We are meant to have equality of treatment under the law. This is not the case, but some of us seem to think that is ok and some of us do not.

Where is the inequality if the people mentioned in the Paradise Papers are not breaking the law?
Is it simply because they have more money than you or I?

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:39 pm 
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MAD87 wrote:
Spardo wrote:
We are meant to have equality of treatment under the law. This is not the case, but some of us seem to think that is ok and some of us do not.

Where is the inequality if the people mentioned in the Paradise Papers are not breaking the law?
Is it simply because they have more money than you or I?


Not simply that, no, but that is part of it. I am not envious of wealthier people because they have more wealth. I am aggrieved that, if you have a lot more wealth, you have more rights as to what you can do with it.

That is the inequality.

Just had a bit of a browse through a thread in another forum and saw this from 2014:

Quote:
Oh, btw, Barclay's did offer to open an offshore account for me, but that meant keeping at least 10K in it at all times and having to pay the expensive offshore banking fees plus 250 GBP opening fee - I think not!


See what I mean?

If you want to wade through it, the full thread is here:

https://www.survivefrance.com/t/opening ... ce/2804/44

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Spardo wrote:
Papibryn wrote:
Spardo wrote:
We are meant to have equality of treatment under the law. This is not the case, but some of us seem to think that is ok and some of us do not.


And yet you are breaking the law. You have said here that you have a bank account in England how come when for a lot of us living here it was stopped, or are you another one with property over there or false property, burning the candle at both ends.


I don't know why yours was stopped, but there is no law against having an account in England when living in France, as long as it was in existence before the move.


Actually there is no law against having a UK bank account when you live in France - full stop.

The problem is the UK Banks - aka BBA - a cartel set up to protect their own interests. To save themselves lots of work it is they that apply the rule (not a law) that they will only open a UK account for UK residents.

My UK bank is happy to keep looking after my UK money, although the poor sods now have to do a tiny bit of work in getting me to sign a self certificate that I am tax resident in other country/countries. My German bank equally has no problem that I am resident in France and my French bank was more than happy to open the account when I was still resident in Germany even though I was neither a French nor a German citizen.

So Papi, I am not sure why you think it illegal nor why your UK account was closed.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Papibryn wrote:
And yet you are breaking the law. You have said here that you have a bank account in England how come when for a lot of us living here it was stopped, or are you another one with property over there or false property, burning the candle at both ends.

I think a lot of people made the mistake of closing their UK bank account when moving to France, then regretting it as they found it was a great deal more difficult (or impossible) to open a new account than they expected. It's not illegal and our UK bank had no problem with our change of address to France.

Spardo wrote:
Not simply that, no, but that is part of it. I am not envious of wealthier people because they have more wealth. I am aggrieved that, if you have a lot more wealth, you have more rights as to what you can do with it.
That is the inequality.

What sort of rights ? If you've got £20, you can do what you like with it just as you can if you've got £20,000 or £200,000. However, if you want to open a Swiss bank account, you need a lot more - but why should that be a problem ?

You can't travel first class on a second class ticket so naturally not all doors will be open if you don't have the money to stump up up front. The sort of services they have to offer are of no interest to anyone who doesn't have the means to use them and if they are going to earn big bucks, these services have to be paid for. But so what ? Why should it matter that some people have loadsa dosh ?
I doubt the Post Office will open a savings account for someone with a million pounds - are they likely to be aggrieved ?

People have been avoiding - and evading - taxes since they were invented. All that seems to shock people about revelations such as Paradise or Panama papers is the amounts. So far the reptiles haven't come up with any illegalities so it really is a non-story at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:15 pm 
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I don't think you have read all my posts, Blaze, the answers are all there.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:06 pm 
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Spardo wrote:
MAD87 wrote:
I am aggrieved that, if you have a lot more wealth, you have more rights as to what you can do with it.

That is the inequality.


Isn't it rather that if you have a lot more wealth, you have more possibilities as to what you can do with it? And the more money you have, the more return on investment you'll get.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:39 pm 
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thelastoneout wrote:
Spardo wrote:
Papibryn wrote:
Spardo wrote:
We are meant to have equality of treatment under the law. This is not the case, but some of us seem to think that is ok and some of us do not.


And yet you are breaking the law. You have said here that you have a bank account in England how come when for a lot of us living here it was stopped, or are you another one with property over there or false property, burning the candle at both ends.


I don't know why yours was stopped, but there is no law against having an account in England when living in France, as long as it was in existence before the move.


Actually there is no law against having a UK bank account when you live in France - full stop.

The problem is the UK Banks - aka BBA - a cartel set up to protect their own interests. To save themselves lots of work it is they that apply the rule (not a law) that they will only open a UK account for UK residents.

My UK bank is happy to keep looking after my UK money, although the poor sods now have to do a tiny bit of work in getting me to sign a self certificate that I am tax resident in other country/countries. My German bank equally has no problem that I am resident in France and my French bank was more than happy to open the account when I was still resident in Germany even though I was neither a French nor a German citizen.

So Papi, I am not sure why you think it illegal nor why your UK account was closed.

First as I have said like many others our account was closed by the UK bank as soon as they found out we didn't have property or live permanately in the UK.
According to research this afternoon more and more people will find out the same .

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Thread drift, maybe this should be another topic.

BTW, people keep on stating that nobody has done anythings illegal. That is an assumption not a fact.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:03 pm 
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Blaze wrote:
However, if you want to open a Swiss bank account, you need a lot more


OK - Let's knock that idea on the head before anyone gets any misconceptions :-)

J


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:18 pm 
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DaveW wrote:
Thread drift, maybe this should be another topic.

BTW, people keep on stating that nobody has done anythings illegal. That is an assumption not a fact.


It should be a presumption NOT an assumption! surely!

Or have we to descend the levels of the Stazi ? Eh Dave?


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:46 pm 
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And a perfectly legal $41m. extracted from Angola!!! ( they do not need the money)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-41906123

That is nothing let's go after people who have payed tax on their money and invested the residue abroad!


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