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 Post subject: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:46 pm 
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BBC wrote:
A huge new leak of financial documents has revealed how the powerful and ultra-wealthy, including the Queen's private estate, secretly invest vast amounts of cash in offshore tax havens.

Journalist sensationalism.

BBC wrote:
How is the Queen involved?
The Paradise Papers show that about £10m ($13m) of the Queen's private money was invested offshore.It was put into funds in the Cayman Islands and Bermuda by the Duchy of Lancaster, which provides the Queen with an income and handles investments for her £500m private estate.
There is nothing illegal in the investments and no suggestion that the Queen is not paying tax, but questions may be asked about whether the monarch should be investing offshore.

How low is the BBC sinking ? Of course it isn't illegal to invest offshore - only not to declare it.
As for "questions may be asked etc etc" - who, apart from the journalists, will be asking questions ? No doubt the Queen's money handlers will be looking for the best investments for her dosh, and if they happen to be offshore, what of it ?

A complete non-story. People have been investing offshore for donkey's years. Fiddling the accounts and not declaring interest made - that's a different thing altogether.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:10 pm 
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But surely it must be a scandal? in involves someone with more money than me!


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:14 pm 
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Being self employed nearly all of my adult life I used every legal method availiable to reduce tax, with my accountants advise, never invested offshore a bit out of my league, always in property.
With the super rich it's the same only adding so many zeros.
Yes there's a lot of corruption but who can change it.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Provost wrote:
But surely it must be a scandal? in involves someone with more money than me!

No matter how much money you have there's always someone who will say " it's all right for you, look at what you've got"
I left school. at 14 after not a lot of education except in life and lost count a long time ago the number of times its been said to me.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Got most of my education before school and after universities.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:12 pm 
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I suspect that the thrust of these programs will be more about how those with influence can push the boundaries of tax law whereas those of lesser means are more restricted in their choices for minimising tax liability.

So HRH has off shore accounts and investments: come Brexit so will I!! I am not sure that is the key point. It is a question perhaps about loyalty and ethics rather than strict legality.

More interesting for me was the convoluted ownership of UK football clubs by a limited number of individuals/companies and Ashcroft's behaviour.

It is a like trying to open a UK bank account from France. You will be offered "international accounts" with UK bank - which are not UK accounts and which require very substantial minimum and maintained deposits. So if you are rich you can open a sterling account with a British bank - which brings the advantages of buying and selling in the UK (or more strictly in sterling) - but if you are poor you cannot.

There is an element of them and us - but it seems that "us" have been shafted most severely since 2008. Whereas "them" have done very nicely thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:42 am 
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I watched part of the televised programme the news referred to. Frankly, it made me nauseas, how the same names seemed to crop up, the connections as to their actions, and the tight knit circle of greedy sheisters evading tax. There's me worryng about putting through a couple of extra expenses and never legitimately even earning enough to pay tax.

When we look at the size of poverty across the world and ask, " just where has all the money gone", well it's clear the greedy fat cats are horading it (and they are usually grossly overweight too).

I'm only bothered by the Queen's offshore stash, then UK tax payers footing the repair bill for the palace.

It's all bollocks. The whole screwed up world. I'll get my coat and go back inside my own bubble!

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:55 am 
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To be honest, so long as it is declared and taxed as necessary then all well and good. Doubtless the tax authorities will be poring over the names to cross check.

With the new concept of a bail in for example, who can blame people for wanting to keep their money out of other people's mismanagement.

I will try and get the files to play with anyhow (my former boss was in the Mossack Fonseca ones!)

J


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:59 am 
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Tax avoidance is fine, evasion is criminal. But this mud raking journalism and it's picking on the Queen simply for sensationalism was abhorrent. Ashcroft yes, but surely the Queen just leaves her monies to be dealt with by her financial advisors as I am sure she doesn't personally trawl through her options for investments.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:04 am 
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It's not that it's "picking on the Queen". The papers were leaked and amongst the names involved there was a big surprise with a crown on her head.

When the head of state is using tax havens to stash her cash away from the prying eyes of her own state does that not raise an eyebrow around here?

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:17 am 
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Some of the rich get richer through wise investment and some, but certainly not all, through avoiding taxation in some way or other. It's unfair to tar them all with the same brush.

Andrew wrote:
When the head of state is using tax havens to stash her cash away from the prying eyes of her own state does that not raise an eyebrow around here?

I see no problem whatsoever if the Crown has funds invested abroad or 'offshore' - the returns are in all likelihood far higher than if the investments were made in the UK. Unfortunately some people automatically equate "offshore" with "tax fiddle" when hundreds of thousands are doing it in a perfectly legitimate fashion. If it is all declared and above board, why should it raise eyebrows ?

There have always been extremely rich and extremely poor - we just hear far more about it today via the media, social and otherwise. You only have to look at India's history to see the stark contrast in how people there have lived for generations.

Many of the rich donate huge amounts to charities and good causes. They're not looking for their own glorification and manage to remain anonymous. Richard Branson has made himself extremely rich but donates generously - I'm sure he has plenty of offshore investments, Virgin Islands for example, but has there been any whiff of him not paying his dues ?


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:21 am 
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AndrewRose wrote:
When the head of state is using tax havens to stash her cash away from the prying eyes of her own state does that not raise an eyebrow around here?


You are making the assumption that the money is not declared - it may be that she makes a full declaration to said prying eyes.

As I pointed out before, off shore has a number of benefits. Secrecy is indeed one - but security from the bail-in is another. Remember, these are high net worth individuals with large amounts of savings for which the €100K protection would be inadequate.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:39 am 
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I'm making no assumptions - just noting the fact that this is all done very quietly. So quietly that its revelation is headline news.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:50 pm 
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It's probably all done quietly because it's no big deal - and fancy headlines are designed to sell newspapers !


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:58 pm 
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What does HMRC stand for?

Then there is the vile Christine lagarde, the french minister and UK hater, stashes her own fortune well away from the France she loves!

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Perhaps the UK should make Tom Daley the next Chancellor of the Exchequer?

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Blaze wrote:
fancy headlines are designed to sell newspapers !


Really??? :)) :))

Forgetting the Queen for a moment - she didn't do this all by herself, though at least one of the investments that resulted from this was in a company that turned out to be exceptionally dodgy - there's a whole lot more that's coming out of this leak regarding others who also make headlines:

Bono, various Trump associates with possible Kremlin links, Justin Trudeau, Arsenal and Everton FCs, Michael Hutchence, Lord Ashcroft, the cast of Mrs. Browns Boys(!) - and that's just the headlines right now on one newspaper website.

Of course there will be many, many more - but people are only going to read about those they've heard of. I understand most people have heard of the Queen, so no surprise she gets headline billing from the start.

As Pres. Obama said after the last leak: "The problem is that a lot of this stuff is legal, not illegal." And it means the rest of us are worse off collectively as the super-rich fail to pay into the same tax base we're paying into - meaning higher taxes and/or worse public services for you and me. There really is no defence.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Trashy, gutter journalism. This could have "outed" potentially dodgy characters like Ashcroft but no, the BBC has to go for the "names" and the Queen fits beautifully. The generally ignorant public should be made aware of certain facts. These "papers" are secret in as much as one would hope that personal information like bank accounts, investments including small savings accounts etc. are "secret". Also have people looked at the make up of their pension /investment funds no matter how modest. Quite likely they will find overseas investments in those.

Crap reporting with a crap sensationalist reporter who ought to get back to the numpties who stand outside no 10 and shout stupid questions at the PM as she exits.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:11 pm 
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+1

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:25 pm 
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Just to add, the ICIJ behind all this are only releasing selected details - not the whole lot.

And given that George Soros's Open Society Foundations is behind the ICIJ, I would not trust it as far as I can throw it to be impartial.

Doubtless the involvement of Soros's fellow sewer dwellers like Hillary Clinton will be removed before a partial "final list" is released.

J


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:12 pm 
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wilbro wrote:
Trashy, gutter journalism. This could have "outed" potentially dodgy characters like Ashcroft but no, the BBC has to go for the "names" and the Queen fits beautifully. The generally ignorant public should be made aware of certain facts. These "papers" are secret in as much as one would hope that personal information like bank accounts, investments including small savings accounts etc. are "secret". Also have people looked at the make up of their pension /investment funds no matter how modest. Quite likely they will find overseas investments in those.

Crap reporting with a crap sensationalist reporter who ought to get back to the numpties who stand outside no 10 and shout stupid questions at the PM as she exits.


Exactly, Wilbro.
We could look at Norway and Sweden where every citizen's tax returns are available for public record. That could make interesting reading !

What can we actually do about the super-rich ? Money talks and the smart ones with the money to pay top drawer financial advisors will continue to make money.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Well, look what the latest BBC headline is :

Queen should apologise, suggests Corbyn
The Labour leader says anyone avoiding tax, as revealed in leaked Paradise Papers, should apologise.

What would an apology achieve ? And why exactly should the Queen be expected to apologise ? Another headline from the BBC more worth of The Sun.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:37 pm 
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Of course Labour would never indulge in such behaviour.

Could you imagine what would happen if they procured their new HQ through a closed ended property unit trust under the laws of Jersey?

Unimaginable!

http://www.schroders.com/en/media-relat ... southside/

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Blaze wrote:
Well, look what the latest BBC headline is :

Queen should apologise, suggests Corbyn
The Labour leader says anyone avoiding tax, as revealed in leaked Paradise Papers, should apologise.

What would an apology achieve ? And why exactly should the Queen be expected to apologise ? Another headline from the BBC more worth of The Sun.


No one in their right mind would think that she has any time to deal with investments, she pays experts to do it and like anyone else and expects to trust them.
For those who complain of her off shore investments whilst Buck Pal costs the nation so much don't worry as she will be the last royal to use it Both Charles and William have said they will not live there and only use it for state receptions, and open up most of it to visitors.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:59 pm 
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I don't disagree Papi but maybe she needs better/different financial advisers (aka experts).

To take the arguement to an extreme, you may be happy with your adviser delivering a 10% yield on your investment (who would not be?) but if you then found out it was through funding brothels, loan sharks etc. would you feel so happy?

There are good and ethical investments, and then there are just those that are "good".

Within the totality of the Duchy of Lancaster I suspect that HRH was barely aware of these small transactions which are managed by her team and not her, but now she is aware.......

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:54 am 
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wilbro wrote:
Trashy, gutter journalism. This could have "outed" potentially dodgy characters like Ashcroft but no, the BBC has to go for the "names" and the Queen fits beautifully. The generally ignorant public should be made aware of certain facts. These "papers" are secret in as much as one would hope that personal information like bank accounts, investments including small savings accounts etc. are "secret". Also have people looked at the make up of their pension /investment funds no matter how modest. Quite likely they will find overseas investments in those.

Crap reporting with a crap sensationalist reporter who ought to get back to the numpties who stand outside no 10 and shout stupid questions at the PM as she exits.


Maybe you should look further than just one day's coverage on one media outlet. The investigation into this and reporting of it spans 96 different media organisations. And of course each one is going to have their own headline.

As for the Queen - can't you people accept any criticism of the monarchy? All I see here is knee-jerk royalism in action.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:00 am 
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AndrewRose wrote:

As for the Queen - can't you people accept any criticism of the monarchy? All I see here is knee-jerk royalism in action.


And can't you for once stop your continued you anti monarchy ranting. All we see is knee-jerking republicanism from you.
A long time ago in another bash the royal rave it was shown that the French presidency cost France more than the UK monarchy.costs

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:50 am 
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I wonder what the response to these reports would have been here if HRH hadn't been in them? I bet you'd not have mentioned them at all. But all critical thought seems to go out of the window as soon the Queen is seen to be questioned in any way.

Vive la republique! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:09 am 
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I thought she was HM not HRH?

As for the rest - other names have come out - I see Lewis Hamilton and a Mrs Brown mentioned also - but I am not sure they would help plug Panorama.

J


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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:17 am 
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AndrewRose wrote:

Vive la republique! :lol:

Teapot wrote:
What does HMRC stand for?

Then there is the vile Christine lagarde, the french minister and UK hater, stashes her own fortune well away from the France she loves!

What a great republic, time to chop off some heads :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:30 pm 
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AndrewRose wrote:
I wonder what the response to these reports would have been here if HRH hadn't been in them? I bet you'd not have mentioned them at all. But all critical thought seems to go out of the window as soon the Queen is seen to be questioned in any way.

Vive la republique! :lol:


Totally agree Vive La Republque.
We live here by choice and it's well known are waiting for citisenship doesn't mean we don't/can't support the UK monarchy.
You were the one as usual who started slating them, isn't it always the same whether it's the royal,the eu or whatever people are so ready to find fault but never praise the good in things.
I'm ready to stand corrected (Well sitting down) but this year's wonderful Invictus I Am games in Toronto Canada , next years in Oz is already organised, I was the only one here to mention it.
Started and organised my P. Harry and his team, he has done so much for injured service persons but where is he praised, certainly not here.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Living in a republic doesn't mean that the "rich" don't employ accountants to manage their dosh and reduce their tax bill. We're not rich, but we employ accountants to present our income to the taxman in the "best" light. It's all perfectly legal and above board and complies with French tax laws. I've no doubt the same applies to all those 'big names'.

As far as I'm concerned, it's up to the countries concerned to change their laws to try to repatriate that wealth. The problem is how to do it without encouraging the wealthy to move to Monaco or the BVIs? Harold Wilson made the fatal error of overtaxing the rich and the result was the "brain drain" of the 60s and 70s.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:36 pm 
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I am sure we can all think of more recent examples - although whether one would call Gerard Depardieu a "brain" is open to debate

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:55 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
I am sure we can all think of more recent examples - although whether one would call Gerard Depardieu a "brain" is open to debate

J



I call him a slob.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC headline : Tax haven secrets of ultra-rich exposed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:04 pm 
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If it is all above board and clean as a whistle why try to keep it a secret? Not breaking any laws is a pretty tame excuse for aggressively avoiding or dodging taxes.

I'm sorry, but the excuse of being too busy or above menial tasks like breaking the law wouldn't excuse me or you. Money in excess of the yearly GDP of big countries is being stashed away and benefiting nobody other than the obsessive greed of a few. I don't care who it is, let's see all the facts and then judge. If it wasn't for this hack the world wouldn't have a clue about the location of trillions of dollars.

Stop this precious pro royalty thing, they have been screwing the British people for centuries, they ain't going to stop because some peasants have published facts about their secret financial activities.


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