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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:55 pm 
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The issues with reusable glass are
1. As Teapot rightly says the accountants don't like it - sorting bottles in the supermarket and shipping empty bottles back to their owners is not cheap and neither is the sterilisation equipment and its running costs to ensure that the bottles are fit and safe to reuse.
2. You still have not solved the issues of broken glass and the damage this does to customers and staff. When I said earlier that thousands were being injured each year that was not an exaggeration, and sadly some of the injuries were far from being trivial cuts*. The thousands was a UK number, so multiply up to get a feel for the problem across Europe.

Germany has solved the first part by imposing a charge (tax) on all bottles that are single use (not just bottles or glass by the way). Packing companies have to subscribe to the Grune Punkt (green point) system. All packages covered by this carry the logo which indicates that the package is to be recycled. The cost of contributing to Grune Punkt makes the economics of reuse much more attractive to your average accountant.
The second point is in part solved by buying behaviour where Germans tend to buy, store and return their beer bottles by the crate. This also applies to the recycled plastic and glass lemonade/pop bottles. Bottles in crates are more protected from damage and are generally pre-sorted.


* Those of a nervous disposition should skip this paragraph.
One of the less pleasant accidents that I became aware of back in the late 70s early 80s was when a bottle was knocked off a supermarket shelf. The staff cleared up the mess and wrapped the broken glass in newspaper and put it in the bin. After the store had closed the cleaning staff came in and one of these went round the bins lifting the plastic bags of rubbish out to go into the outside bin. As they were gathering up all of their bags, the one with the wrapped glass in swung against her leg. The glass pierced the newspaper and the plastic bag and embedded itself nearly 3 inches deep in her leg.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:24 pm 
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Re you bottom paragraph, not quoted for those of a nervous disposition.

All stores now have or should a bin for taking glass, batteries, etc. That was from the historic times, I hope.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:57 pm 
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Teapot wrote:
Re you bottom paragraph, not quoted for those of a nervous disposition.

All stores now have or should a bin for taking glass, batteries, etc. That was from the historic times, I hope.



Quoted as being late 70s or early 80s.

The risks are still there however. How many people have a broken glass bin at home?

Not me, and I should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:29 pm 
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Teapot wrote:
:lol: yes, I must admit to 16 years in industry some time back doing similar.



When I wrote 40 years in industry I should have written 40 years in the industry.

R&D, Production, Marketing and Logistics - including 4 years representing our (petrochemicals) company on the packaging group of the VCI (Verband der Chemischen Industrie) in Germany.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:31 am 
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thelastoneout wrote:
Teapot wrote:
:lol: yes, I must admit to 16 years in industry some time back doing similar.



When I wrote 40 years in industry I should have written 40 years in the industry.

R&D, Production, Marketing and Logistics - including 4 years representing our (petrochemicals) company on the packaging group of the VCI (Verband der Chemischen Industrie) in Germany.

Toolmaker, mold Maker, Mechanisation, R&D, Production. Internal parts for United Gas Industries

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:34 am 
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thelastoneout wrote:
Teapot wrote:
Re you bottom paragraph, not quoted for those of a nervous disposition.

All stores now have or should a bin for taking glass, batteries, etc. That was from the historic times, I hope.



Quoted as being late 70s or early 80s.

The risks are still there however. How many people have a broken glass bin at home?

Not me, and I should know better.

Really, we have one because we were renting out ~x(

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:08 am 
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Iceland (food chain) declared they will be plastic free within 5 years. So it can be done, Maybe you should have Gove watch and learn Mrs Maybot.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:39 pm 
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It is an ambitious target but if they can do it fine.

However even here, it is not all good news. They plan to replace their plastics with wood and card based alternatives. This includes microwavable trays. The CEO states that all of their paper products will be sourced from sustainable sources, which is also excellent. Could every supermarket do the same - technically it would seem possible, but will there be a strain on sustainable paper supplies? I will confess I don't have a clue, but sustainable forest resources are not infinite. The CEO admits that the new packaging will be a little heavier but says that this should not have a significant impact. I doubt that Iceland loads its trucks to the maximum permitted weight on the roads, so a few tens of kilos extra weight per delivery may consume a very small bit of extra fuel but is not going to lead to extra trucks having to make extra deliveries.

It all looks good then doesn't it?

Cautiously yes. What Iceland are not saying is that paper production uses very large quantities of water - most of this can be returned to the rivers once it has been cleaned up. It also uses a great deal of energy. In fact it takes more energy to produce paper items than to produce the plastic equivalent - and this includes the energy content of the plastic itself. So if the energy comes from renewable sources this looks like a very good move, but if the energy comes from fossil fuel sources then we are being conned about how environmentally friendly this move is.

Things are rarely as simple as they first seem.

Overall I remain cautiously optimistic. The opportunities are certainly there so let's hope they can deliver.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:55 am 
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thelastoneout wrote:
Overall I remain cautiously optimistic. The opportunities are certainly there so let's hope they can deliver.

Me to but it always needs someone to start the ball rolling.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:44 am 
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Also, Iceland have clarified their statement to say that they will phase out all plastics on own brands.

I never go into the place so I have no idea exactly how that changes things, or otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:39 am 
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Grand Frais, the fresh food store in Brive have replaced all their plastic bags with paper bags on rolls. Much better, they can be re-used at home or stand in as firelighting material. Don't know if other Grand Frais stores have done the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:13 am 
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Spardo wrote:
Also, Iceland have clarified their statement to say that they will phase out all plastics on own brands.

I never go into the place so I have no idea exactly how that changes things, or otherwise.

That's perfectly understandable, maybe they will be able to influence some of the branded suppliers.

Iceland, used to be the place of cryogencically ruined food many years ago. Hadn't been in one for decades. BIL who is quite a foody bought one of their Goucho steaks and said how good it was so I ventured in..........Some of their own ready meals (not the basic ones) are really quite good. There lasagne beats "only our accountants can taste the difference range" for a fraction of the price. Hats off to them!

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:14 am 
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wilbro wrote:
Grand Frais, the fresh food store in Brive have replaced all their plastic bags with paper bags on rolls. Much better, they can be re-used at home or stand in as firelighting material. Don't know if other Grand Frais stores have done the same.

Also good to hear both the shop and that you are supporting it.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:01 pm 
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wilbro wrote:
Grand Frais, the fresh food store in Brive have replaced all their plastic bags with paper bags on rolls. Much better, they can be re-used at home or stand in as firelighting material. Don't know if other Grand Frais stores have done the same.



Same here, I suspect it is company wide. I personally prefer the plastic bags because we used them as rubbish sacks The paper ones are not so good for kitty litter!
WE now have to buy bags and they are about twice the thickness, so for us the change has increased our plastics consumption. The same happened in Ireland when they had their plastic carrier bag ban back around 2000. Plastics consumption in Ireland took a step up. The law of unintended consequences.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:56 pm 
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When our cats were small and using litter trays I used to bury it in a part of the garden (wooded area), out of the way. Now the cats are adult they see to their own toileting arrangements outdoors. I appreciate we live in a suitable rural environment and it may be difficult for others but in the past we used to keep used liitter in old re-sealable fatball buckets which were emptied when full and put in a lot of old newspaper and then in the black bin bag for immediate disposal.


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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:01 am 
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One Mum's unique take on plastic litter.

http://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwa ... er-1077804

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:29 am 
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We re-use paper and plastic bags at the market - I like the big paper bags they use in the US.

A serious question, since someone has mentioned cat litter waste : What are we supposed to do with dog poo in the garden ? Fling it into the field behind which can be either grass for silage or corn ? If they don't poo when we take them out, I bag it up and put it in the bin. We used to have plenty of land, so it was never an issue unless it was near the house. But now we have just a garden, so not an option to bury it (two dogs doing two whoppers a day .... :shock: )


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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:46 am 
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You can buy ahem, a plastic dog toilets. I joked with my Mum, "how do you expect the dog to use it" :lol: it's a composting toilet you put the waste into same as you would a human composting toilet.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:36 am 
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:lol:
I've just found this article which seems a pretty good DIY job, with full instructions and photos !
http://www.instructables.com/id/Big-Dog-Poop-Composter/


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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:54 pm 
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I have an old trowel and a plastic bucket. The poo is flicked into the bucket with the trowel and the lid replaced. When it is half full (it is quite heavy) I feed a 50L plastic bag over the open bucket, turn it over, a bit of a tap and a shake and the bucket is empty. The bag is then sealed with a knot and placed in the bin for the garbos.

This is what I was told to do some years ago when I first started to bag it. I had taken it to the dechetterie but they refused it and re-directed me.

Before that I dug a trench in the ground and gradually filled it, with a light covering of soil each time. But then I realised that I would have trenches all over the place, so sought the alternative.

Out on walks I take the little plastic bags the supermarket gives me and clear up after the dog before disposing in the nearest bin. But only in public areas where others, especially children, are likely to walk. As recommended by the RSPCA I think, out in the open where nobody but me ventures, I leave it to nature. By the same token I do not collect badger, fox, boar, rabbit, deer or kangaroo poo. ;)

As someone in reply to the link said, my dog does re-cycle some of her own in the garden, and unfortunately, some of the deer's in the field. It is impossible to stop her as, being almost deaf, she only responds to hand signals. If she could hear, my fiercest, deepest 'leave it', would stop her, but my hundred yard dash to get within range days are long gone. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:54 pm 
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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-corn ... ink1_.auin

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Dog walkers that pass by seem to have trained their dogs to crap at our garden gate! No not just us who have noticed our neighbours have commented on the practise too.

Surely if you have a problem in disposing of the crottes why not put them in the WC? Or are your crottes better than those produced by your dogs?


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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:53 pm 
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Provost wrote:
Surely if you have a problem in disposing of the crottes why not put them in the WC? Or are your crottes better than those produced by your dogs?

Tried it - the loo can't cope !


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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:28 am 
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Provost wrote:
Dog walkers that pass by seem to have trained their dogs to crap at our garden gate! No not just us who have noticed our neighbours have commented on the practise too.

Surely if you have a problem in disposing of the crottes why not put them in the WC? Or are your crottes better than those produced by your dogs?



Clearly your garden gate is now recognised (by smell) as a dog latrine. If you are in the country, you could try moving the poo a couple of feet away from the gate. With luck, the dogs will start using the new latrine, and then you can move it a couple of feet more. Of course that does not really work in a town or city.

Regarding using the loo, cat litter attached to cat poo will almost without fail block the pipework. So even it it worked for dogs it does not for cats.

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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:41 am 
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Provost wrote:
Dog walkers that pass by seem to have trained their dogs to crap at our garden gate! No not just us who have noticed our neighbours have commented on the practise too.

There are various products that are supposed to deter dogs from crapping in certain spots but I don't know if they work. How about something spiky like bramble cuttings there - it would soon put them off.


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 Post subject: Re: Plastics
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:13 am 
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It's the fosse which can't cope I think. Many years ago I did that but then realised that a fosse designed for what was then a one bed dwelling would not cope eventually with the products of four or five mammals each day.

Not sure you are totally correct Andy, I would love it if my dog did her business in the same spot each day, but she doesn't. I will admit though that she has about half a dozen favoured places. Peeing is something else, dogs will certainly do that, in fact my Beauceronne would queue up behind me in the garden. 8-|

Had to laugh though when I delivered a Dobermann male to a large house and garden a week or so back. Once assured that the garden was dogproof I let him off the lead to run and explore. Soon he went behind a large tree and the new owner predicted 'ah, time for a crotte', and, sure enough the dog assumed the position. Apparently all his previous dogs had done it there.

It was funny though because the dog politely hid behind the tree, with only his nose visible in our sight. :lol:

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