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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:35 am 
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aude wrote:
Monarchy like the church are charities looking after each other one falls the other goes
Why should any citizen bow to another and pay his/her wages to an equal human just because of birth or a faith for doing bugger all

It's not just royalty - I would question whether all politicians earn the salaries they are paid !


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:41 am 
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MAD87 wrote:
Elstow wrote:
MAD87 wrote:
And before that the last English monarch was...Harold? Haven't they all been French, Scots, Welsh, Dutch and German since him?

Harold was a son of Godwin Earl of Wessex, and of Gytha Thorkelsdóttir. So maybe half English (unless she was one of the Tunbridge Wells Thorkelsdóttirs).

:lol:
There you go then, Danish immigrants presumably.


Well the Saxons were from Saxony, I thought?

Queen Boadicea?

J


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:44 am 
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If you have 15 minutes to spare take a read of this - the delights of Britain's wonderful aristocracy laid bare:

How the aristocracy preserved their power

After democracy finally shunted aside hereditary lords, they found new means to protect their extravagant riches. For all the modern tales of noble poverty and leaking ancestral homes, their private wealth and influence remain phenomenal

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/sep/07/how-the-aristocracy-preserved-their-power


As I said before, it's long overdue that the whole system, from the top down, is thoroughly overhauled. These people hold huge wealth and power merely through accident of birth. They hold onto it by unearned deference and elaborate tax avoidance schemes. And I suspect they'll fight tooth and nail to hold onto it.

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:42 am 
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AndrewRose wrote:
After democracy finally shunted aside hereditary lords, they found new means to protect their extravagant riches. For all the modern tales of noble poverty and leaking ancestral homes, their private wealth and influence remain phenomenal.


Disagree - nothing to do with loss of hereditary Lords from HoL - they have been tax dodging since time immemorial.

J


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:42 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
AndrewRose wrote:
After democracy finally shunted aside hereditary lords, they found new means to protect their extravagant riches. For all the modern tales of noble poverty and leaking ancestral homes, their private wealth and influence remain phenomenal.


Disagree - nothing to do with loss of hereditary Lords from HoL - they have been tax dodging since time immemorial.

J


I suspect that the loss of 300 quid a day might have something to do with it, J.

Certainly would to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Spardo wrote:
niemeyjt wrote:
AndrewRose wrote:
After democracy finally shunted aside hereditary lords, they found new means to protect their extravagant riches. For all the modern tales of noble poverty and leaking ancestral homes, their private wealth and influence remain phenomenal.

Disagree - nothing to do with loss of hereditary Lords from HoL - they have been tax dodging since time immemorial.
J

I suspect that the loss of 300 quid a day might have something to do with it, J.
Certainly would to me.

That's only if they attend. Only a few receive a salary, none of the others do. And it should be noted that most members of the HoL today are not hereditary peers. Members of the House of Lords are appointed by the Queen on the advice of the Prime Minister.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:42 pm 
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I've read the article, Andrew, and I see nothing wrong with using whatever tax optimisation tool is available. They're using existing tax rules to their advantage and collecting subsidies available to them. It's really down to their ancestors who operated the land-grab in the first place.
The EU subsidies will go with Brexit and I can't see any government stepping in to replace that money.

Giving the government the power to dispossess them would be a dangerous move. Where would it stop?

"Imaginative" new tax legislation could satisfy egalitarian sensibilities, perhaps.

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:10 pm 
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I would not suggest dispossession or confiscation as such - merely that they have to pay the same Death Duties as the rest of us rather than being able to hide it via a trust and pretend it is not really theirs.

The Duke of Westminster's estate should have yielded over £3bn.

As for the EU farm payments - I think there is already a solution for that in the offing :-)

J


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:51 pm 
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MAD87 wrote:
I've read the article, Andrew, and I see nothing wrong with using whatever tax optimisation tool is available. They're using existing tax rules to their advantage and collecting subsidies available to them. It's really down to their ancestors who operated the land-grab in the first place.
The EU subsidies will go with Brexit and I can't see any government stepping in to replace that money.

Giving the government the power to dispossess them would be a dangerous move. Where would it stop?

"Imaginative" new tax legislation could satisfy egalitarian sensibilities, perhaps.

Couldn't agree more. Ok, so some of the hereditaries (by no means all) live off inherited wealth, and employ clever tax advisers. I'm sure that Abramovich's kids will do just the same. I have used every tax trick in the book to keep my hard earned from the Chancellor. I think that I do a far better job of spending it than him. These rules are open to anyone to exploit.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:57 am 
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Trusts have been a part of sensible family wealth protection for a long time and are available to all people who wish to protect family assets. These are certainly not just for wealthy people. Life Assurance policies can be written in trust for example to keep them out of any Inheritance Tax liabilities etc. etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:05 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
MAD87 wrote:
Elstow wrote:
MAD87 wrote:
And before that the last English monarch was...Harold? Haven't they all been French, Scots, Welsh, Dutch and German since him?

Harold was a son of Godwin Earl of Wessex, and of Gytha Thorkelsdóttir. So maybe half English (unless she was one of the Tunbridge Wells Thorkelsdóttirs).

:lol:
There you go then, Danish immigrants presumably.


Well the Saxons were from Saxony, I thought?

Queen Boadicea?

J

We've just had this discussion over lunch (as one does). Indeed niemeyjt, both the Angles and the Saxons were German. OH suggested John of Gaunt's family might be belated Englanders, but John was of Ghent and was a Plantagenet (French) to boot.
We've decided therefore that since there were no obvious English between the Italian Romans and the rest of the invaders, there have been no English monarchs! Welsh yes, Scots yes, but none of yer actual English. Maybe a few grunting prehistoric peasants before the Romans came to Rye and out to Severn strode....

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Well actually, if you look at the pedigree of the late Queen Mum you'll see that despite the Bowes-Lyon family being scottish through the male line, they were really rather English:
https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Bowes-Lyon-Family-Tree-5

So the Queen could be considered quite substantially English, whilst also having Danish, German, Welsh and Scottish ancestry. This should appeal to all those remainers out there, as she is practically the European Union in one person - Prince Charles perhaps more so.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Elstow wrote:
Well actually, if you look at the pedigree of the late Queen Mum you'll see that despite the Bowes-Lyon family being scottish through the male line, they were really rather English:
https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Bowes-Lyon-Family-Tree-5


Rumour has it the Queen Mother was half French - hence the nickname "cookie".

J


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:00 pm 
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Elstow wrote:
Well actually, if you look at the pedigree of the late Queen Mum you'll see that despite the Bowes-Lyon family being scottish through the male line, they were really rather English:
https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Bowes-Lyon-Family-Tree-5

So the Queen could be considered quite substantially English, whilst also having Danish, German, Welsh and Scottish ancestry. This should appeal to all those remainers out there, as she is practically the European Union in one person - Prince Charles perhaps more so.


No just a bloody mongrel like 99.9% of the rest of us

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:55 pm 
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So Lizzie's female line has added a bit of "English" blood to the mix, but not much. My mother's line was originally "English" and counts a regicide among its members. Peake's right though - the so-called English are a mongrel race as are most other nationalities....even the Irish (though it pains me to say it), with their strong Viking and Spanish dilutions.

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:28 pm 
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If by Spanish you mean as a result of those escaping armada shipwrecks, I believe it to be a myth. Most young men were slaughtered by the natives as they dragged themselves out of the briny.

At the end of the day I think that there's one race, the human one.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:09 am 
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When I wrote my last but one post I was trying to lay my hands on a book I have called "Royal Highness Ancestry of the Royal Child" by the late Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk (Bart). I couldn't, and was cursing whoever had stolen it. Despite its rather dry sounding title (it was written to explain the ancestry of the foetus who became prince William, Duke of Cambridge whilst his mother was pregnant and the gender of the child was unknown) it is a book of great scholarship and completely fascinating if you are at all interested in history.

I'm glad to say that I found it (I had misfiled it between Molesworth's "The Princes" and Chritopher Andrew's "The Mitrokhin Archive" - both fascinating, but for different reasons). It deals with Prince William's ancestry by country. The chapter headings are:
The British Isles
Great Britain
The ancient world (Parthia, Persia, Babylonia, Scyths, Caucasia, Cilicia)
The Balkans
Byzantines and Greece
Cyprus and Jerusalem
The Czechs
France
Holy Roman Empire
Saxony
Germany and Austria
Hungary
Italy
The low Countries
The Netherlands
Poland
Poland and Lithuania
Portugal
Romania, Moldavia, Vallachia
Russia
Scandinavia, Norway
Spain
Usa
It explains how HRH is descended from the royalty or notables of these countries, including Genghis Khan, Rhodri Mawr, Brian O'Neill, Malcolm I, Hugh Le Despencer, Guy De Lusignan (and therefore the fairy Melusine), Good King Wenceslas, Barbarossa, Wiliam the Silent, Charles the Bold, Rurik (and therefore Woden), Olaf Tree Hewer, El Cid (Roderigo de Bivar) and, colaterally George Washington and Robert E Lee. I have cherry picked the ones I thought gave us a flavour of the truly pan national ancestry of the Windsors.

Surely any good European would agree that a way of uniting Europe would be to offer the Imperial Crown of the EU eu to Prince William.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:18 am 
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Oh yes I love the Royals.
I was a tour guide in London back in the 1990s. Took brave tourists around 'Royal London' on bicycles! ( The London bicycle tour co. Still going strong)
Great job actually. A real laugh. But much prefered the Americans because they were so much fun. The Brits required more information and thought - they knew it was Buck house, I had to tell them something they didn't know.
I paid off my student debts thanks to the Royal Family

8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:08 am 
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I am not at all surprised by Prince William's mixed ancestry. The further back you go, the more likely you are to come across "mixed" marriages.

I always thought my ancestry was totally Scottish until researching my father's side of the family. It seems that the Vikings invaded the west coast and islands of Scotland : The Macleods clearly spent a great deal of time and money researching the origins of their family, and I discovered that my 23rd great grandfather (!) was Harald Sigurdsson also known as Hardraade (Harold Hardrada) who was killed invading England's east coast in 1066 - just before the death of Harold Godwinson. His wife was Ellisif (Elizabeth) of Kiev ... and I haven't looked any further back than that.

In 1810, the Swedish parliament chose a Frenchman, Jean Baptiste Bernadotte, one of Napoleon's marshals, as heir presumptive to the Swedish throne ...


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:32 am 
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Blaze wrote:
In 1810, the Swedish parliament chose a Frenchman, Jean Baptiste Bernadotte, one of Napoleon's marshals, as heir presumptive to the Swedish throne ...

Indeed, and reather embarrassingly for him he had "death to kings" tattooed on him when he was young.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:57 pm 
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For all of those who appose the royal family, just follow "I am", the Invictus Games this year held in Toronto and who started it? None other than Prince Harry
I'll not mention his father who saved the Dutchy of Cornwall, years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:22 pm 
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I'll grant you that "Ginger" Harry, and Billy boy have done much more, than Charlie boy has done in his lifetime, except making a fool of himself, by asking, when taking time off from driving a mine sweeper in the North Sea, in Holland when walking down the Riepersban (sp) why are all those ladies sitting in the shop windows with next to no cloths on, and also writing off an RAF plane he was piloting and got away with it leaving the RAF personnel to be charged with the loss of the airplane

Dont know if it was Billy or Ginger who lost their rifle in training should have faced a court of enquiry

As for saving the Duchy of Cornwall, how could he, seeing that its granted to the first male heir until the current ruler decides to push up the daises, nice money if you dont need it [url]
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 21598.html[/url]

And who was a Nazi lover

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/11752880/New-pictures-of-Edward-VIII-giving-Nazi-salute-on-visit-to-Germany-emerge-at-auction.html

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:00 pm 
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Well, Prince Charles founded the Prince's Trust which seems to be a pretty good organisation:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/idris-elba-reveals-how-princes-9141622


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:10 pm 
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Elstow wrote:
Well, Prince Charles founded the Prince's Trust which seems to be a pretty good organisation:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/idris-elba-reveals-how-princes-9141622


Like his old man founded the DoE, and that seems to be going strong

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:25 pm 
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peake wrote:
Like his old man founded the DoE, and that seems to be going strong


Surely, his old man is the DoE?

J


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:55 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
peake wrote:
Like his old man founded the DoE, and that seems to be going strong


Surely, his old man is the DoE?

J


J

The Duke of Edinburgh awards

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:24 am 
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Blaze wrote:
I am not at all surprised by Prince William's mixed ancestry. The further back you go, the more likely you are to come across "mixed" marriages.


I think it's true that statistically you'll probably find you're related to everybody who was alive something like 500-600 years ago. So go back to Henry VIII and beyond and they're all ancestors of all of us.

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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:07 am 
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Which must mean that we are all related. Hi cuz!


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Some people have had some surprises when doing a DNA test to see their origins. I'd be interested in doing it out of curiosity but I'm not sure how kosher it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:43 pm 
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Blaze wrote:
Some people have had some surprises when doing a DNA test to see their origins. I'd be interested in doing it out of curiosity but I'm not sure how kosher it is.

Well, if they are descended from anything that chews the cud and has cloven hooves they should be alright.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Royalists out there?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:56 am 
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Some Scandinavians may get a surprise !
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41567391


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