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 Post subject: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Having just received my latest 2 month estimated bill from EDF, €605, I have asked if there are any other cheaper rates available from them, might as well have phoned a brick wall. Anyway looking again at the bill the actual electric is somewhere around €350, the rest is made up of taxes and VAT, but am I reading or translating the bill properly, one item is Taxe sur la Consomation Finale, TCFE, now to me that is a Tax, but then they slap a further 20% TVA on that so it becomes a tax on a tax, surely that is double taxation. God knows what the other contributions are for, so I think it may be time to make a move, I have seen one called Mint which claims at least a 10% saving, has anyone switched to a better rate, please let me know. Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Have you compared the actual meter reading with the estimated value? That may put your mind at rest (or make it worse!).

What do you use electricity for? Cooking? Heating?

Maybe changing usage may be more effective than changing suppliers?

But to the question in hand - no, we only ever used EDF.

J


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:45 pm 
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We've only ever used EDF too - and always grumbled about the taxes bumping up the price. I agree with J about usage, but it may well depend on the type of house and what kind of heating you have.
We changed our ways some time ago to reduce our bills and it has made a difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:55 pm 
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Meter reading actually makes it worse, totally dependent on electric, we do have a wood burner in the main sitting room but it is such a chore dragging wood about that we have given it a bit of a rest this year, we do use a couple of the portable gas heaters which are very effective, but the rest of the place is by convector heaters, most on timers to get the most out of them. Pointless having them on all night when you are tucked up in bed, the rate alters from about 11.30pm to 7.30 am so the water heater, dishwasher and pond filtration is set to come on at that time, albeit the pond is normally 24/7 in sunnier months, otherwise it's pea soup. I expect the gas cylinders have gone up in line with fuel prices, last one was 24€ and normally get 2 weeks in the gas fire on that so not bad compared to wood prices and no cleaning the grate out every morning, I have tried to get the wood in the summer, but it never appears to be any cheaper, it's running close to 200€ a corde at the moment, whatever way you work it the end result is that it costs loads.


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:17 pm 
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There are other electricity suppliers now, I heard last year that one guaranteed to be 10% cheaper than EDF. Anyone know any more?

Hughnique, some more details of your pond filtration, I can take a look. I have just save one of the local Koi guys about £600-700 per year.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:40 pm 
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Hughnique - we are on Ciel Bleu or whatever the cheaper overnight tariff is called, but our CH is oil.

I would question whether being on the cheaper overnight tariff is worthwhile if you are all electric : daytime use of heaters will cost a fortune on the cheaper overnight rate as the day rate is more expensive than if your whole system was on the same tariff day and night. Have you contacted EDF for advice ? When we came here we phoned them and they were very helpful and suggested which rate we should be on.

It's worth seeing if Teapot can help - he seems to know a thing or two about swimming pools ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:57 pm 
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Location: Herault (34)
I changed suppliers from EDF to Lampris (now called TotalSpring). They then gave the best rates, I assume they still do, but I have not checked.We heat with gas (same supplier) and cook etc. electric + occasionally use the pool heater = expensive in electricity. Have a look at their rates.


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:54 pm 
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I looked into all this tax-on-tax fraud a couple of years ago and contacted the EU advice service. I was told that it was illegal.
The consolidated tax directive/regulation has been worded (translated?) in French in such a way which the French believe lets them off the hook. The English language version is a bit fuzzy on the point I seem to recall.
I had meant to follow up the scam with Europe but never got round to it :( , but I have a sheaf of exculpatory letters from EDF, GDF, Michel Sapin and co, denying that the scam was illegal.
AFAIK, the taxes are (currently) payable no matter who supplies your juice but I may be wrong.

I'm currently looking into a cheaper supplier, but one thing you can do to reduce the damage is to look at the incoming power. The higher the supply kwh, the higher the abonnement.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Here's one comparison
https://www.fournisseurs-electricite.com/comparatif-electricite/actu-electricite/1107-fournisseur-electricite-le-moins-cher
and another https://www.kelwatt.fr/guide/le-moins-cher

I'm still looking for the Que Choisir mag with their analysis....

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:19 pm 
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Location: somewhere in the "pays de dropt"
Same as in other properties here in france we have 3 phase 9kw, ie 3kw each phase, its a very old meter and as long as we can keep it we will, because if a new one is fitted we know that our bill will triple at least.
Just had our end of year top up and the bill is 53 euros.lighting,bathroom heater,workshop machines.electric chainsaw.
Edf is supposed to put all our lines here undergroung and i'm fighting not to get a new all singing, dancing meter when they do.
Been there done that back in the Lot and paid the price.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:27 am 
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Papibryn wrote:
Same as in other properties here in france we have 3 phase 9kw, ie 3kw each phase, its a very old meter and as long as we can keep it we will, because if a new one is fitted we know that our bill will triple at least.
Just had our end of year top up and the bill is 53 euros.lighting,bathroom heater,workshop machines.electric chainsaw.
Edf is supposed to put all our lines here undergroung and i'm fighting not to get a new all singing, dancing meter when they do.
Been there done that back in the Lot and paid the price.

Dream on, Papi. We were told after the 1999 tempête that the lines would be buried, since when ERDF has been out countless times to deal with the "vetuste" power lines and substations. A line was down locally before Christmas (propped up in the middle of our road by pitch forks and broom handles) and not replaced for several days. Yesterday I noticed a leaning poteau resting on a road sign...

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:11 am 
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Promises to bury lines are as empty as promises to mend pot holes in the road : paint marks making you think something is going to be done ..... We saw it in Scotland when we lived there, and we see it here .... On peut toujours rêver ... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:53 am 
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MAD87 wrote:
Papibryn wrote:
Same as in other properties here in france we have 3 phase 9kw, ie 3kw each phase, its a very old meter and as long as we can keep it we will, because if a new one is fitted we know that our bill will triple at least.
Just had our end of year top up and the bill is 53 euros.lighting,bathroom heater,workshop machines.electric chainsaw.
Edf is supposed to put all our lines here undergroung and i'm fighting not to get a new all singing, dancing meter when they do.
Been there done that back in the Lot and paid the price.

Dream on, Papi. We were told after the 1999 tempête that the lines would be buried, since when ERDF has been out countless times to deal with the "vetuste" power lines and substations. A line was down locally before Christmas (propped up in the middle of our road by pitch forks and broom handles) and not replaced for several days. Yesterday I noticed a leaning poteau resting on a road sign...


Yes Mad we know it was before christmas 2016 that we had a large meeting here with a number of edf techs the mayor and councelors i signed lots of documents to give wayleave on our ground and was told that the lines would be put underground in the spring 2017, as stated we are still waiting.
All of the single phase was done three years ago, but obviously three phase is different.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:21 am 
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hughnique wrote:
I have tried to get the wood in the summer, but it never appears to be any cheaper, it's running close to 200€ a corde at the moment, whatever way you work it the end result is that it costs loads.

Just really took notice of this part of your post.
My you are getting ripped with wood, cant believe 200 euro.
We had a load of oak,charm mixed, in just before christmas 10 stere 2 meter long and paid 40 euro a stere.
Normal price here for 1 meter long is 50 to 60 a stere.
Obviously if cut to 40 or 50 cm its a lot dearer.
Ps forgot the there are about three stere to a corde.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:37 am 
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Papibryn wrote:
hughnique wrote:
I have tried to get the wood in the summer, but it never appears to be any cheaper, it's running close to 200€ a corde at the moment, whatever way you work it the end result is that it costs loads.

Just really took notice of this part of your post.
My you are getting ripped with wood, cant believe 200 euro.
We had a load of oak,charm mixed, in just before christmas 10 stere 2 meter long and paid 40 euro a stere.
Normal price here for 1 meter long is 50 to 60 a stere.
Obviously if cut to 40 or 50 cm its a lot dearer.
Ps forgot the there are about three stere to a corde.

Around €50-60 a stere cut at 500mm cheaper for mixed.
Overall shows the need for insulation, did our last year when the new roof went on and boy what a difference!

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:48 pm 
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Being in property development all my life i say the most important is loft insulation, long time before double glazing.
All the housed which ive built or renovated ive fitted more than double the regulated amount and it shows.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:14 pm 
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I'm 100% with you there, Papi. We always put in well over the recommended thickness, both to save heat loss but also to keep cooler in the summer. We've always had slate roofs and as they absorb heat from the sun, the extra thickness is a bonus in summer.


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:35 pm 
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Papibryn wrote:
hughnique wrote:
I have tried to get the wood in the summer, but it never appears to be any cheaper, it's running close to 200€ a corde at the moment, whatever way you work it the end result is that it costs loads.

Just really took notice of this part of your post.
My you are getting ripped with wood, cant believe 200 euro.
We had a load of oak,charm mixed, in just before christmas 10 stere 2 meter long and paid 40 euro a stere.
Normal price here for 1 meter long is 50 to 60 a stere.
Obviously if cut to 40 or 50 cm its a lot dearer.
Ps forgot the there are about three stere to a corde.


The price around here for wood, from, PLAINTEL BOIS ENERGIE

Bois en vrac prix au stère ( 3 steres = 1 corde)

50 cm: 240 euros TTC 3 stères livrées 2.4 m3
40 cm: 250 euros TTC 3 stères livrées 2.25 m3
33 cm: 260 euros TTC 3 stères livrées 2.1 m3
25 cm: 270 euros TTC 3 stères livrées. 1.8 m3
prix livré 25 km autour de plaintel

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:56 pm 
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200€ for a stere is certainly a rip off. It is much cheaper from those well know wood suppliers of Super U (under 90€) and Castorama (under 120€).

Not sure of prices from the local woodsman but I would guess around 50€ - still burning the remains of our house gutting where we have several tens of stere there for the cutting up.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:41 pm 
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@Papi
@Blaze
I spent yesterday afternoon researching extra insulation for our new house (and how it should be done). I hadn't realised you could get fibreglass insulation without the damp barrier in both panels and rolls. There's about 100mm there at the moment, so we'll add the same or maybe 120mm. It will surely pay for itself within a year or 2.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:54 pm 
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MAD87 wrote:
@Papi
@Blaze
I spent yesterday afternoon researching extra insulation for our new house (and how it should be done). I hadn't realised you could get fibreglass insulation without the damp barrier in both panels and rolls. There's about 100mm there at the moment, so we'll add the same or maybe 120mm. It will surely pay for itself within a year or 2.


My advice is put in enough to make up 300mm,minimum, ive been doing that for about 20 years, it pays for its self.
Here now that we have sold in the lot ( final on 25th) for our new sitting room with cathredral ceiling it will be 450mm.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:41 pm 
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Papibryn wrote:
MAD87 wrote:
@Papi
@Blaze
I spent yesterday afternoon researching extra insulation for our new house (and how it should be done). I hadn't realised you could get fibreglass insulation without the damp barrier in both panels and rolls. There's about 100mm there at the moment, so we'll add the same or maybe 120mm. It will surely pay for itself within a year or 2.


My advice is put in enough to make up 300mm,minimum, ive been doing that for about 20 years, it pays for its self.
Here now that we have sold in the lot ( final on 25th) for our new sitting room with cathredral ceiling it will be 450mm.

Thanks for that, Papi.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:47 pm 
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Again, I agree with Papi !
We've got at least 300mm with the apexes well stuffed with it as that's often the weak point. You can see that on frozen roofs where the ridge section melts before anything else. One part of the attic has the insulation laid on the floor in 2 directions as we never intend doing anything with that end. There was no insulation anywhere when we came here and it's made one heck of a difference ... and should reduce our heating bills.

We have also recently plaster-boarded and insulated an exposed stone wall that backs onto our barn as the wind whistled through it and found every gap. It's a total transformation from a rather gloomy cold room to one that's light and bright ... and warm.


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:42 pm 
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I couldn't fit in 300mm in the roof and show off the old A frames and timbers. Compromised with reflective breather membrane, 30mm of multi foil to seal airtight and reflect then 200mm of rock wool (don't like glass fibre). Put extra into the apex's good for 300mm.

Rooms up to temperature actually a bit hotter and walked all round the outside with the thermal camera. Only leakage as you would expect was the chimney. Nice and warm inside whilst -6c outside, The first time ever it's been warm in winter.

We cast in a second register plate above the first floor height and put two 120mm holes into the chimney to use the trapped heat to warm two upstairs rooms which it does really well. The chimney is of course lined and a CO monitor installed.

Even if the wood burner isn't that efficient using that heat between the register plates means the overall system efficiency is very good. Used much less wood this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:22 pm 
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Is this of any help?
http://www.energie-info.fr/

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:32 pm 
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Teapot wrote:
I couldn't fit in 300mm in the roof and show off the old A frames and timbers. Compromised with reflective breather membrane, 30mm of multi foil to seal airtight and reflect then 200mm of rock wool (don't like glass fibre). Put extra into the apex's good for 300mm.

Rooms up to temperature actually a bit hotter and walked all round the outside with the thermal camera. Only leakage as you would expect was the chimney. Nice and warm inside whilst -6c outside, The first time ever it's been warm in winter.

We cast in a second register plate above the first floor height and put two 120mm holes into the chimney to use the trapped heat to warm two upstairs rooms which it does really well. The chimney is of course lined and a CO monitor installed.

Even if the wood burner isn't that efficient using that heat between the register plates means the overall system efficiency is very good. Used much less wood this year.


Did you earth the foil membrane ?, according to one manufacturer, each membrane should be earthed

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:21 am 
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No Peake, mine wasn't pure aluminium, mine is reflective plastic

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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Sorry been a bit busy but thanks all for the replies, insulation is not an option without taking all the plaster boarding down, and god knows what that would reveal, but the roof slates do stay frosty for quite a while so I would presume that there is sufficient in there. Are we getting stere's and chords mixed up as if it is 60€ a stere in 1metre lengths then 3 times that for a chorde is 180€ plus it is in 50cm so 200€ is about right, never seen it in Super U apart from nice clean palletised stuff all shrink wrapped, but all that was reflected in the price and nothing like 90€ a chorde. I have had chestnut in 30cm at 160 chorde, but that burnt quickly and every time you opened the door it spat out on the rug.
As for the pond teapot, 2 x Nexus 300 gravity fed with sequence 1200 pumps, one skimmer with sequence 1000, and another skimmer running through a Nexus easypod with an Aquamax 1800, obviously air pumps on the 2 large Nexus and around about 240 watts of UV in high summer. At the moment the set up is one 300 coming on at night only, plus the skimmers, but no UV.


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:45 pm 
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There is a lot of confusion over steres and cordes (here 3 steres to a corde) and nowhere when i search on line can I find a Super U that supplies logs for burning. Only the compacted stuff instore, pellets etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Where we lived before, some people reckoned on 4 stères to a corde ! But most people do 3 - perhaps it depends if you're selling or buying !

Wood is expensive round here. It came as a shock to the system because we've never had to buy wood before - our woodland kept us in permanent supply.


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 Post subject: Re: Tax on Electricity
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:25 am 
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Until last year when we had the air to air heat pump installed we were paying the local farmer € 150 for 3 cu.metres of 1 metre logs, delivered and stacked for us by him and his wife.

Half metre logs were more expensive but it would block our access and take me days to stack as he brought it in a tipper.

I haven't had to remember the difference between steres, cordes or bras for years because he always knew what I needed.

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