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 Post subject: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Having changed to the new electronic impots form I am struggling to complete it. I receive an old age pension. can work out where to declare this. I also have a form S1 so I am exempt from CSG charges. My question is how do I indicate this on the form?

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:09 pm 
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I have successfully avoided the on-line declaration by declaring myself incompetent - probably true.

I believe there is a box at the end of the on-line form that allows you to input such information or anything else you might consider relevant.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 12:26 pm 
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Yes I saw that but I am not confident any note will be read and applied, especially as they are trying to automate all the calculations. But thanks for the reply, perhaps I should apply the "incompetent" strategy as I certainly qualify.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 12:51 pm 
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In the past pension incomes from abroad ended up in box AS1. This box is now used only for French pensions, and UK pensions end up in AL1 or AM1 and this I think flags to the authorities that social charges have been paid/allowed for elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 3:34 pm 
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I have just returned from the queues of unwashed and bewildered at the local tax office. You are right. pension in 1 AL which goes automatically to 1 AM. This should be enough to avoid CSG. You only declare CSG liable stiff in section 9 of form 2047. Nevertheless I have added a note at the end of the submission repeating that I have an S1 and am therefore exonerated. I also put a note in explaining the exchange rate used so if they disagree at least it has been declared. Thanks for your input.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 3:52 pm 
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I wonder how Brexit will change the S1 regime .....


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 4:17 pm 
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You're not the only one Blaze, views here amongst those eligible seem to vary from 'don't care', to 'whatever', to 'the accountant can deal with that' to 'what does The Connexion say?'. Gawd help 'em all.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 4:44 pm 
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I originally applied for the S1 to ensure I had my own card for my 5 years ALD. However, I can fortunately tag onto OH's carte vitale should my S1 become invalid. Perhaps people are just waiting to see what happens rather than panicking.

Just out of interest, when someone retires in France, having worked here, do they still have to contribute to the health system ? He won't get his UK pension until he's 66 but how does that affect him here ?
He will probably continue working indefinitely as he seems to get plenty of translation work ...


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:18 pm 
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Blaze wrote:
I originally applied for the S1 to ensure I had my own card for my 5 years ALD. However, I can fortunately tag onto OH's carte vitale should my S1 become invalid. Perhaps people are just waiting to see what happens rather than panicking.

Just out of interest, when someone retires in France, having worked here, do they still have to contribute to the health system ? He won't get his UK pension until he's 66 but how does that affect him here ?
He will probably continue working indefinitely as he seems to get plenty of translation work ...

I'd like to know the answer to that too - I suspect much will hinge on the BR---- negotiations, although I don't trust any of that shower over there to keep their word. Neither OH nor I have plans to retire either, although I've started saying I'm too busy when I don't fancy working. We both have UK and FR pensions. Perhaps one day the préfecture in Limoges will look at our nationality applications....

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:40 pm 
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MAD - OH has a UK government pension, but will have to wait for the state one. Will he automatically get the French entitlement at 62 or does he have to wait until he's 66 ?


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:55 pm 
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I retired with a French state pension and AGIRC etc. top ups. You kiss goodbye to 8% for health and other stuff and income tax on the remainder. Egalite, fraternite and quite right too. The 'cadre' top up pensions make it worth while. I should have received my UK state pension last year, but it all disappeared down a fonc black hole. The French retraite should have communicated with the UK and the process should have worked seamlessly. I cussed and cursed the French side and even submitted all the paperwork again. I called the UK pensions people this week and they said, ah yes we have the paperwork from France. I wanted to say, "then WTF didn't you do something with it" but I didn't want to upset the nice Geordie person on the phone. "Don't worry mon we will sort it out". The lesson is you have to chase people and don't assume it's the French. They seem far more competent than the UK foncs.

My next challenges are Irish and US state pensions.

Only small but it all adds up.

PS - we decided not to avail of the S1 for my OH and just kept her on my SS number. With hindsight probably not a bad move.
PS2 - He can claim French state pension if he has enough combined trimesters. I can't remember the exact numbers, but just contact CARSAT or equivalent and ask them for their records. Get the same information from Newcastle and see if the numbers add up. Good luck, it's hard work.


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 6:42 pm 
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I understand that here were reciprocal health care rights before the UK joined the EEC.

In theory therefore the rights could continue, but with the UK outside of the EU, that might not exonerate folk from Social Charges - which is a tax issue and not a health care issue. However I think (I would have to spend a sleepless night again) that the DDT covers social charges, and since this is a bilateral agreement independent of the EU, then no charges would apply.

Worst case, I revert to social charges in Germany and bring the OH along with me. [That will please the health insurance company a lot - not ; given that I was in, then out, then in and now out of their system.]

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 6:52 pm 
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I really think it will end up with current rights maintained for all EU nationals, anything else is just madness. The wicked witch mark 2 may be playing a smart game by going for a landslide in the election. She can immediately ditch Boris the clown and other Brexit nutters and go for a softer approach.

Or.....


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:31 pm 
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DaveW wrote:
PS2 - He can claim French state pension if he has enough combined trimesters. I can't remember the exact numbers, but just contact CARSAT or equivalent and ask them for their records. Get the same information from Newcastle and see if the numbers add up. Good luck, it's hard work.

Thanks for that, Dave !

I found Newcastle incredibly helpful when applying for my pension, then later going onto the S1. It was all very easy.


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 6:17 am 
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Yes, CARSAT's your man. Blaze, your OH should have had incomprehensible 'projected pension' statements every 5 years.
As for the UK state pension, my OH made the mistake of relying on the rules and asked the French to collect it (CIPAV, another useless body). There followed many years of pass the parcel between Cipav and DWP until the latter eventually gave in and paid up. When my turn came, I applied directly to Newcastle and didn't tell them I was working here. It all went reasonably smoothly, as did getting my French pension at 65.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 6:26 am 
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I think keeping the two (UK and France) separate seems to be the way to go ! I must admit, I've never heard of CARSAT, but perhaps OH has, though I don't think he's had any sort of communication from them.
Thanks for the info, Liz and MAD.


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 7:42 am 
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Having once helped a retiring deaf English artisan (he spoke reasonable French but couldn't cope on the phone any more poor chap) to go via his French employment history (self-employed and briefly employed) to establish all his rights I'd recommend going direct to DWP for the state pension!
However, that was some years ago.
I'm dreading the same hassle for Fixit & me... in the not too distant future. We have enlisted the help of friends 'in the business' to interpret all the jargon used on our UK private top-up pension options, we haven't got a clue what it all means :(

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Oops...I put our pensions in boxes 1AS and 1BS as in other years. I didn't see 1AL.
I know you can edit your declaration up till the end date so should I go back and change it or will it not make much difference on our small income. We don't pay income tax here anyway and our income has actually gone down with the exchange rate.


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 6:29 pm 
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My guess is (and it is just a guess) that anything placed in AS1 will automatically attract 8% social charges.

Things added to AL1 and AM1 are likely to lead to further investigation as to whether charges are required or not. If your only sources of income come in these categories, I think it will be a near automatic exclusion from the 8% charge.

So yes I think it might matter quite a lot - and especially as your income is low.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Is it all pensions from the UK?
We have our old age government pensions but also a couple of other small ones from work.


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Yes, they are all categorised as private pensions (even the OAP). Only Government pensions (armed forces, teachers, some NHS etc.) are public pensions.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:18 am 
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Blaze wrote:
MAD - OH has a UK government pension, but will have to wait for the state one. Will he automatically get the French entitlement at 62 or does he have to wait until he's 66 ?

As far as I know, you can get the FR pension at 65.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:24 pm 
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I have kept everything seperate, French and UK, and it seems to have worked alright so far. I used to get charged CSG but do not seem to have had a bill in the last year or 2.

I have a small French state pension and a tiny one from ARRCO-Carcept (don't they just love their acronyms) which includes a few cents a year (yes, really) because I once dug out some stumps for a neighbour with my digger and insisted on her paying me with a cheque de l'emploi, just in case I turned it over on the slope ;) .

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:04 am 
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I asked the question via the messagarie on the tax site and got the following reply:-

Le formulaire S1 n'est pas présent sur le site impots.gouv. Lors du dépôt de votre déclaration, vous voudrez bien nous faire parvenir la copie de vos attestations de la Caisse Primaire d'Assurance maladie. Ces attestations justifieront de l'absence d'affiliation à la sécurité sociale. Ainsi, le montant de la CSG appliquée sur vos pensions sera éliminée par un crédit d'impôt.
Cordialement

Google translation Form s1 is not available on the site impots.gouv. When filing your return, you will be kind enough to send us copies of your certificates from the primary health insurance fund. These attestations will justify the absence of affiliation to the social security. Thus, the amount of the csg applied on your pensions will be eliminated by a tax credit. cordially.

Where is the "Gallic shrug" smiley?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:33 am 
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thelastoneout wrote:
In the past pension incomes from abroad ended up in box AS1. This box is now used only for French pensions, and UK pensions end up in AL1 or AM1 and this I think flags to the authorities that social charges have been paid/allowed for elsewhere.



Are you sure this is completely correct, Andy?

Surely only pensioners like my wife, should go in there. or rather in 1BM.

I have always added my UK pensions to the French ones, above 1AS, and then put the total of the 2 in the corrected box, 1AS.

I have though also put my wife's in 1BS but last year got a rather confused phone call saying I had done something wrong. Perhaps that was it and this time I should put hers in 1BL?

What do you think?

I still haven't got my red form yet and the deadline for paper is next week. Speaking to a German friend she said that she didn't get one for about 8 years, but this year did. I have reported online for a couple of years now so perhaps should fill it in there anyway.

Be too easy to make things easy, wouldn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 3:38 pm 
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Very sure David.

2047 K asks for pensions earned from other countries to be entered into the relevant boxes and then states that these numbers are transferred to boxes 1AL/1AM. (or the equivalent B boxes for the OH).

As I have said this is a new layout this year and I strongly suspect that this is related to CSG payments being due or not. In previous years everything went into 1AS as you describe.

This year 1AS should be filled out automatically by the fiscs (but corrected if wrong), since they know what you have been paid from French sources - or at least they should know.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 4:18 pm 
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OK, so in my case my UK pensions should go in 1AM, as foreign sourced pensions liable to French tax (and presumably CSG) and my wife's should now go in 1BL?

My French pensions are not put in 1AS, but in the un-numbered box above, so I suppose I should leave it untouched there as no correction necessary.

If I had recieved the 2047K then I might have spotted that for myself, so thanks for the heads up.

I might have not been sent 2047K because they have got used to me doing it online now so they see that as irrelevant. Still wondering if I should seek it and fill it in online though.

Thanks again, on verra :) .

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Yesterday I received a phone call from impots. I had put my OAP in 1 AM and my private pension in 8 TK

He asked me what the 8TK entry was. When I explained it was a private pension from which UK tax had been deducted, he said it should have been added to the OAP in 1AM. He said he would do it for me.

That is a bit worrying because I had already signed off my pension as a true statement etc and here was someone else changing it.

I asked him how I ensured that I would be exonerated from CSG. He had no idea so had an open discussion with some colleagues obviously in the same room who seemed equally uncertain and came up with the suggestion that they should already have that information and I would be exonerated automatically.

I was not inspired with confidence but fortunately my income is so low I do not have much to worry about.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:42 pm 
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It's not unusual for them to change something that you have already signed !

We had something similar when we filled in a tax d'hab form after major works on the house : Madame in the office made various alterations (in our favour !) despite the fact that we'd signed it !


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:38 am 
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Spardo wrote:
OK, so in my case my UK pensions should go in 1AM, as foreign sourced pensions liable to French tax (and presumably CSG) and my wife's should now go in 1BL?

My French pensions are not put in 1AS, but in the un-numbered box above, so I suppose I should leave it untouched there as no correction necessary.

If I had recieved the 2047K then I might have spotted that for myself, so thanks for the heads up.

I might have not been sent 2047K because they have got used to me doing it online now so they see that as irrelevant. Still wondering if I should seek it and fill it in online though.

Thanks again, on verra :) .


I'm not sure they are sending out 2047 this year. I didn't get one, just a 2042, presumably as a reminder. But I've been doing my return online for several years.

As you have a foreign pension, you should be completing 2047, specifically the first page. And if you have a government pension (teacher, NHS, local government, etc) which have to be taxed in the UK and go in 1AL/1BL you also need to complete the 8TK section. If you complete 2047 first the figures will get carried back to 2042 when you get to the end of 2047.

If you have any UK bank accounts, premium bonds, life insurance, etc. you should also be completing 3916 which is for foreign accounts. If those accounts are registered to your French address the UK bank, etc will be reporting details of interest, etc automatically to the French authorities. So if you don't declare them, you could be open to a fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:07 am 
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elsie wrote:

I'm not sure they are sending out 2047 this year. I didn't get one, just a 2042, presumably as a reminder. But I've been doing my return online for several years.

As you have a foreign pension, you should be completing 2047, specifically the first page. And if you have a government pension (teacher, NHS, local government, etc) which have to be taxed in the UK and go in 1AL/1BL you also need to complete the 8TK section. If you complete 2047 first the figures will get carried back to 2042 when you get to the end of 2047.

If you have any UK bank accounts, premium bonds, life insurance, etc. you should also be completing 3916 which is for foreign accounts. If those accounts are registered to your French address the UK bank, etc will be reporting details of interest, etc automatically to the French authorities. So if you don't declare them, you could be open to a fine.


I didn't get one either and did it as usual online. But I did 2042 first and was directed, because of previous online declarations, to the other 2.

I had already reported as directed on 2042 and was confirmed in that when I did 2047.

However, it would not let me sign off until I had filled in 8TK, which I duly did, unaware of what you say that that is for government pensions. It may be that there is no difference in French between 'government' and 'state', and so, as I had declared 'state' and 'private' perhaps that is why they wanted me to do 8TK.

It shouldn't make a difference as I haven't paid income tax for years and, even when I was working here on the SMIC, actually got a rebate one year. :o

I suppose if they are not satisfied I will get a phone call again, spoken too briefly and fast which inhibits understanding. Why oh why don't they write or email to leave me in no doubt? :(

The handy thing about online declarations is that I only have to confirm that 3916 is unchanged and don't have to go through all the rigmarole of bank addresses and account numbers each time. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Private/company pensions and your State Retirement pension and go into Box 1AM/1BM on page 1 of the 2042 Box 1AL on the 2042. They are not included in 8TK.

It is only your Public Service pensions ((teacher, NHS, local government, etc) which go into Box 1AL/1BL on the 2042. Then that figure goes in 8TK on 2047 which is carried back to 8TK on 2042.

The UK state pension is not a government pension in French terms. After you have completed the appropriate form (P85 ?), the UK state pension and private pensions can be paid without UK tax deducted. But, under the double taxation treaty, the Public Service pensions have to have UK tax deducted from them which is where 8TK gives you an allowance for UK tax already paid.


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 1:15 pm 
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elsie wrote:
Private/company pensions and your State Retirement pension and go into Box 1AM/1BM on page 1 of the 2042 Box 1AL on the 2042. They are not included in 8TK.

It is only your Public Service pensions ((teacher, NHS, local government, etc) which go into Box 1AL/1BL on the 2042. Then that figure goes in 8TK on 2047 which is carried back to 8TK on 2042.

The UK state pension is not a government pension in French terms. After you have completed the appropriate form (P85 ?), the UK state pension and private pensions can be paid without UK tax deducted. But, under the double taxation treaty, the Public Service pensions have to have UK tax deducted from them which is where 8TK gives you an allowance for UK tax already paid.


Just had another look at my copy and I realise that I only transferred my wife's pensions to 8TK, as directed by a message which popped up when I tried to 'sign'. This is the total of her state pension and local government one. I wasn't asked to differentiate between the two but as I had ticked both 'state' and 'private' for both of us perhaps that was the cause.

We shall see, but this confusion between state, government and private (company?) income isn't helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 2:16 pm 
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The distinction between Private/company/State Retirement pension and Public Service pensions (teacher, NHS, local government, etc) has been there (well, at least the last 15 years when I've been completing a French tax return). The Public Service pension (teacher, NHS, local government, etc) has always been the only one to go in 8TK even though the total figure for all pensions went in 1AS etc.

The figure for Public Service pension you need to declare is the gross figure (the net sum you received + any UK income tax paid)

Only the Public Service pension is not taxed in France (Double Taxation Treaty). However the figure it is used when adding up your total income to work out the tax bands used for calculating the tax on your other income (so it can take you into a higher tax band even though it is not taxed).

The 2047 Notes https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/files/formulaires/2047/2017/2047_1911.pdf put it slightly differently:
– 1AL à 1DL pour les pensions de source étrangère ouvrant droit à un crédit d’impôt égal à l’impôt français
– 1AM à 1DM pour les autres pensions de source étrangère
and
- de reporter ligne 8TK de la déclaration n o 2042, les revenus imposables en France qui ouvrent droit à un crédit d’impôt égal au montant de l’impôt français correspondant à ces revenus
There is then a longer explanation Section B on page 2 of crédit d’impôt permet d’éliminer les doubles impositions

What has changed this year is the distinction with 1AS/1AL/1AM etc which is probably so make it easier to distinguish between French and foreign pensions and those liable for CSG, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Exemption from CSG on impots form
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:20 am
Posts: 2739
Location: Le Périgord Vert (24)
Well my total UK pensions, company, state and a pittance from the Pru, all went into 1AL and Fran's, local government and state, went into 1BL.

Then her total went into 8TK because that was what it insisted we should do. (In other words it wouldn't allow me to complete until I had done so).

I only saw one distinction between the various classes of UK pension, state, and Private, so I crossed them both in both our cases. I didn't see anywhere to declare a company pension seperately, in fact, whenever I have mentioned it to French people it has been met with a blank look. Don't they have company pensions in France? I do get a French pittance to match the Pru's from ARRCO-Carcept. No idea what that stands for except that it seems to be directed at the transport sector. I didn't even find out about it till 18 months after I retired, but they wouldn't backdate it. :(

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