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 Post subject: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:46 am 
So, yesterday morning the energetique man came to call, (today the carpenter, tomorrow probably the electrician etc etc). Anyway, he started testing the house, or looking at it and then said he couldn't continue. No heating. Euh? I've got a wood fire that does really quite well, only small but packs a punch so to speak.

So, now the house details say no DPE because there is no heating, even though the wood burner is mentioned. I have asked the notaire and the agent to put that I do have in the rooms a point where radiators can be wired in, one point (in the office) I use in the winter (cosy).

France eh #-o .


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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:17 pm 
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I'd have thought your property was super in Eco terms...surely a wood burner is carbon neutral?


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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:46 pm 
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LaEtoile wrote:
I'd have thought your property was super in Eco terms...surely a wood burner is carbon neutral?


No, with no form of fixed central heating, the assessor cannot give an annual rating of the heat loss, through the building fabric, and the prospective purchaser will have no idea on the running costs of the property

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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Actually, the rules (art R.134-1 du code de la construction et de l’habitation) state that, inter alia, properties with no heating other than an open fire are exempt:
"Les bâtiments ou parties de bâtiments non chauffés ou pour lesquels les seuls équipements fixes de chauffage sont des cheminées à foyer ouvert, et ne disposant pas de dispositif de refroidissement des locaux"

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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:09 pm 
peake wrote:
and the prospective purchaser will have no idea on the running costs of the property

But I do, lived here long enough.


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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:21 pm 
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The point is that someone has come up with a new form that gives jobs to people who don't know what they are doing and obviously the government gets a cut!

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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:38 pm 
Well, the chap that came does the other tests (except termite, don't have those here) so he knows what he is doing, nice guy. But for the governement taking a cut . . . hmmmm, I can see that.


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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:10 pm 
peake wrote:
LaEtoile wrote:
I'd have thought your property was super in Eco terms...surely a wood burner is carbon neutral?


No, with no form of fixed central heating, the assessor cannot give an annual rating of the heat loss, through the building fabric, and the prospective purchaser will have no idea on the running costs of the property


Why? heat loss is due to the effectiveness of insulation, not how the heat is produced. Why is it impossible to estimate running costs based on wood rather than oil? Makes no sense, clearly system is flawed and geared only to urban properties.


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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:14 pm 
dr orloff wrote:
geared only to urban properties.

There are many urban properties that heat with wood only.

Daft thing is it says on the agents details 'no DPE as there is no method of heating' which is not really fair. There is heating. There are many houses, some bigger that heat just with wood.


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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:31 pm 
Agreed, competely daft. We have wood heating only and it is cheaper than oil.


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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:00 am 
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dr orloff wrote:
peake wrote:
LaEtoile wrote:
I'd have thought your property was super in Eco terms...surely a wood burner is carbon neutral?


No, with no form of fixed central heating, the assessor cannot give an annual rating of the heat loss, through the building fabric, and the prospective purchaser will have no idea on the running costs of the property


Why? heat loss is due to the effectiveness of insulation, not how the heat is produced. Why is it impossible to estimate running costs based on wood rather than oil? Makes no sense, clearly system is flawed and geared only to urban properties.


Dr O, I think that you have missed the point that I was making

The problem with no fixed form of central heating, the person who makes the DPE, has no reliable data to form an assessment of the required amount of heat required, other than physically measure the property, in its entirety and then work out the heat loss through each separate component of the fabric of the building, this can take the best part of a couple of days, if not longer to do it properly

What the person who does a DPE, is to ask for the last years electric, oil or gas bill's, a quick and easy way of doing an estimate for the DPE, after just doing a quick floor area measurement, because electric bill's quote the kW used, natural gas bills will also state how much gas has been consumed, propane gas bill's will give the amount of gas delivered over a year, and a quick check on the bulk tanks gauge, will show how much is left in the tank, so that it is easy to work out how much has been consumed over a year, the same with oil, both propane and oil have specific quantities of heat produced when burnt, per litre of propane or oil, so that is easy to look up and see how many kW this equates to per square area floor plan

All the above mentioned forms of heat raising appliances have thermostatic controls, either at each radiator, and or a room thermostat which controls the central heating circulator, the boiler also has a thermostat to control the firing of the boiler

Wood pellet and wood chip boilers, have the same controls, as the above boilers, but the calorific value of the pellets/chips, are subject to variations, so this type of heating could be a little bit wide of the mark for assessment

Wood and solid fuel burning appliances, only have a very basic form of control, also the calorific value of the fuel burnt is an unknown value to the assessor, the table below will show why it is impossible to start to give any idea of the kW/mt²/yr, just by going on last years wood bill, because all wood delivered is a mixture of different trees, and its not all thoroughly dry when delivered, which will lower the calorific value of the wood being burnt, some of the heat produced is used to dry the wood, and not given out as useful heat


Hardwoods (fully air dried)

Ash.Weight per m3 in kg 674 Gross heat value kW/kg (btu/lb) 4.1 (6,350) % Moisture when green 35, Seasoning time in summers 1

Beech. Weight per m3 in kg 690 Gross heat value kW/kg (btu/lb) 4.3 (6,700) % Moisture when green 45, Seasoning time in summers 1-2

Birch. Weight per m3 in kg 662 Gross heat value kW/kg (btu/lb) 4.1 (6,350) % Moisture when green 45, Seasoning time in summers 1

Elm. Weight per m3 in kg 540 Gross heat value kW/kg (btu/lb) 3.6 (5,600) % Moisture when green 60, Seasoning time in summers 2-3

Oak. Weight per m3 in kg 770 Gross heat value kW/kg (btu/lb) 4.5 (7,000) % Moisture when green 50, Seasoning time in summers 2-3

Poplar Weight per m3 in kg 465 Gross heat value kW/kg (btu/lb) 2.6 (4,100) % Moisture when green 65, Seasoning time in summers 1

Softwoods

Pine/Fir Weight per m3 in kg 410 Gross heat value kW/kg (btu/lb) 2.6 (4,100) % Moisture when green 60, Seasoning time in summers 1


The only thing that I can say for a DPE assessment, which I consider to be a crude form of likely running costs for heating a property, is that at least it does give a person thinking about buying the property, an idea of what the heating bill will be like, before they get too involved in buying the property, and that its on a par with the septic tank, electrical inspections, which are visual inspections

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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:26 am 
I've not missed the point, rather I think that just goes to show what a completely pointless and typically bureacratic exercise the DPE is. Any purchaser can ask how much did you spend on heating last year, they don't need an intermediary to provide the information. The only useful information that an expert could possibly provide is some measure of the effectiveness of the insulation in the property, which is just what they cannot do. The amount of heat required is entirely subjective. For example, I don't require much at all, whereas my mother in law requires tropical temperatures.


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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:56 am 
peake wrote:
is that at least it does give a person thinking about buying the property, an idea of what the heating bill will be like,

And nothing more than an idea.

AsDr Orloff say's he needs one temperature yet his mother in law does. I buy my wood from X, he charges me xyz. Another person buys the same amount of wood per year but from Y who charges abc for wood. Might as well get the Brothers Grimm to do the test, or at least write the results.


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 Post subject: Re: DPE . .. And The Point Is . . .?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:49 pm 
Had a word at the notaires today. She can't put on the info that there is provision for other heating and she does agree it is daft to say a house has no heating when in fact in might have very effective wood heating.

Despite this it is not a setback as most people are aware that just because it might say there is no heating house hunters know that there is (sort of thing) . So I save the fee for the DPE, coooooool Image.


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